To think family court can't be THAT bad?

[RabbitWarrren]

I have gone down a rabbit hole of threads on here and Twitter accounts of women fighting to get their kids back after abusive and/or rich men have got full custody or majority custody. Some truly awful stories

Am I being a total cow to think there must be more to it? Loving, caring, devoted mothers losing their kids to men who have criminal records? Or even just losing their kids entirely to men who never lifted a finger before?

I don't mean that these stories aren't horrific and unjust. But just that it must be something must be more complex for a mum to lose their kids?

Am I being naive? Victim blaming? Is the family court system really that criminal?

During lockdown cafcass did a telephone appointment with my son because he was refusing to see his dad. (he was terrified after years of abuse culminating in his dad trying to make him eat food he is anaphylactic to) . (He disclosed this to his head teacher who wrote a report to the court)

The cafcass officer spoke to my son for 5 minutes. Asked leading questions "you like daddy don't you?" . " You don't find daddy scary do you?".

Then on the back of that conversation alone wrote up a report recommending contact.

My son still refused to go, and thankfully for once I had a sensible judge who didn't punish me for not forcing contact.

I am a lawyer (different area of law) and I have been utterly shocked by the shambles in the family court.

Having said that, if you read "The Secret Barrister" you will see that it isn't any better in the criminal courts (at magistrates level in particular)

Court is imtimidating OP. So imagine one person has legal aid (no lawyer involved). Straight away who ever has a lawyer gets their points over very accurately and calmly. The person who has a lawyer has a head start in the race.

This is key in court it's very easy to get nervous and not deliver your argument across clearly and confidently.

Throw in a character who is cunning and witty I can see how it could be a complete disaster.

Yes family courts can be that bad and corrupt

What shocked me was how well I was treated and protected as an adult victim of abuse (when the police first helped me escape and I sought a non mol at their advice

Compared to how much dad's rights were prioritised over the children's safety when I sought to protect them

And in particular I can't understand why dad being charming over a nice cup of tea with the cafcass officer (who, interestingly, only had a phone call with me) was seen by cafcass as more compelling than police evidence, medical evidence and evidence from school

I also remember the huge, red faced bully of a cafcass officer who laughed at me when I said I was too afraid to be in a room with just him and my abusive ex (the same ex the court had seen sufficient evidence to know a molestation order was merited)

So many traumatic memories. So many times I was shocked and disappointed to fall down the rabbit hole of the family courts.

(There were one or two sensible judges,.but sadly I never saw the same one twice. And some spoke to me, a victim of abuse, like I was a criminal)

Ex CP SW here. Yes they are that bad, horrific even. Completely not fit for purpose, yes gender bias exists and yes resources, reputation and even looks/grooming can sway your case. Many judges are old school and incredibly misogynistic/sexist (pro-dad at all costs) and even with cast iron evidence of abuse that parent in question almost always get the contact they ask for.

I find them truly horrific places where the unthinkable almost always happens, if you haven’t experienced it either as a professional or a parent you’ve no idea truly how bleak it is.

I’ve been through family court, without going into detail it was a fucking awful experience that was dragged out for two years and the repercussions are still negatively affecting me 14 years later.

I work with women who were made to leave their abusive partners by social services under threat of losing their children. Then their partners take them to family court claiming parental alienation and the court consistently disregards any evidence of abuse that has gone on. Some of the mothers are made to maintain contact (and thus remain in an abusive relationship), others have lost all contact. It happens a lot and is truly horrific.

Its all they are bothered about. I was told that child alienation is worse than any other kind of abuse. Even though there was no evidence of me using child alienation and tonnes of police evidence of physical and emotional abuse

I was actually lectured on it by the judge.. all because the dad said it was happening to avoid taking responsibility for his own behaviour. Its a joke.

Worth watching Ch 4’s Dispatches documentary on the family courts. Barrister Charlotte Proudman shone a light on how horrific it is for victims of abuse.

This is the utter hypocrisy at the heart of the current institution. It's heartbreaking and awful.

My heart goes out to those who have lost their children. And to those who know that in "escaping" they have unintentionally put their children at greater risk

I'm always sorry to see threads like this, but on some level, I'm always relieved it wasn't just me. When I was being abused, it was real, you can feel the punches. When I was in family court, the professional gaslighting is so unreal, that you start questioning your own reality. I started to think I really was emotionally damaged, sociopathic, maybe my children were fantasists, perhaps I was subliminally convincing them to lie afterall... the trauma of it was far worse than living in that abuse. And my ex came out of it happy that I'd been proved to be a liar, he was given the go ahead to carry on....

So thank you for those of you who are brave enough to share. It's upsetting to read, but it is still a strange comfort.

to all of us who have been there.
We were 'lucky' in that my 2 DD's were old enough to be able to say that they didn't want to see their father anymore. But I still had to go through hell, alone in FC three times. It's just awful. You're so vulnerable and your entire life is in the hands of hardened old hacks who intimidate and talk down to you and disregard the hell that you have lived and the risks that are there for you. My abusive ex crying and garnering sympathy. I didn't understand a lot of what was being said because law is a different language. But I did get a non-molestation order and he was told to leave the marital home while I got it sold for the divorce. It was some respite and we have been NC for 5 years now and the repercussions are still there for all of us.
You don't end up in FC for light reasons, you are broken already.

so well put @mumoffourgs

I didn't know what the family court was like until I experienced it myself. Every hearing it was a different set of Magistrates some were ok. I wouldn't recommend court to anyone. I wish I hadn't bothered but then I thought it was the right thing to do at the time

When I was in family court, the professional gaslighting is so unreal, that you start questioning your own reality

This jumped out at me. I feel exactly the same way mumofhugs.

My own (expensive) legal team let me down so badly. This in addition to my ex smirking as he dragged me through a pointless exercise alleging 'parental alienation'. He doesn't even want to see the DC, and makes no effort to do so - it's just an opportunity for him to exert control and upset over me & DC (in Ireland, this allegation leads to a 'Voice of the Child' report by a psychologist (who can be anyone who calls themselves such) costing at least €6k)

the trauma of it was far worse than living in that abuse

I also feel this. I'm entirely alone wit this - no one understands, my family are unaware / disinterested. Thankfully I have a great counsellor who gets it.

I'm sorry you are going through the same.

We were 'lucky' in that my 2 DD's were old enough to be able to say that they didn't want to see their father anymore

Same here, but Section 37 / Voice of the Child still ordered. My legal team made a shambles of things - failed to file affidavits in time, strict judge went through them for a short cut. My position was so badly represented.

My DC father knows full well the DC don't want to see him & why - I've heard them tell him to his face what he's done & how they feel. And he's invented this mad narrative for court that went unchallenged.

It's shocking that the mechanisms of court assist these abusive men.

I am articulate, intelligent & well-prepared. It made no difference as I had no voice.

Listening to proceedings was like a punch to the gut. Even typing this is hard.

There is often more to it, my brother going through it at the moment, his ex is abusive, controlling and manipulative. He's not amazing but not abusive. Ultimately I think there are couples that can't put the child first. My brother's ex thinking best interests of her child is to be with her 24/7 for the whole of her childhood, school optional. She won't entertain any reasonable access, my niece is unable to meet any of her loving cousins, grandma, aunties and uncles. Some people go to family court for no choice and I really feel for them but a lot of people who perhaps have fewer issues will resolve their family arrangements outside of the court or with a bit of light touch. Unfortunately some people end up in family court because they can't cope very well with responsibilities and I think that's very hard. There's no reason at all why armies of forms, meetings, people and years have to be involved for someone sensible somewhere to tell my brother's ex that of course, there's no reason that he can take her to the park or round to her grandma's for a Sunday lunch. Courts deal with a lot more serious stuff but there's a lot and it fails a lot of people and kids.

It’s extremely traumatic.
I have achieved what my sexually abused daughter needs; her dad’s loss of PR. But what my DD and I have both lost, soul-deep, along the road to seek what is right, what is just and what is protective, is enormous. The family court has taken the last of my strength and torched it. I’ve been destroyed by the process. It’s like trauma and abuse by the courts on top of the years of trauma and abuse I’ve been trying to escape. Layers of abuse. It’s as if family court insists you remain bound to your abuser.

I got off the other thread because I attacked a DSL and although I’m right 🥳🥳🥳… attacking people on threads isn’t decent at all and it’s not typical of me. So, I’ll probably not engage too much on this one.

I am so sorry @EarringsandLipstick you and your DC have been let down appallingly. These are our lives and it is really hard remembering it all and thinking about it.
Parental alienation was of course what my ex was claiming as well. The other saving grace was that one of my dds had filmed him in full swing one night. They really suffered and I had tried to get away from him before but no-one would help me - it was only the fact that there was proof that he was abusing the children that helped me.
I remember the SW having a go at me for having let my children live in that kind of environment and I was so upset, I said that noone would help me when it was just me being abused when the kids were younger, and she said 'well it's because he's abusing the kids now' that you're getting help.

And that's the danger in letting these men have access to their children. They don't love anyone, including their own children, how on earth can anyone argue that they have a place in their kids lives.

My experience was OK.

My ex was sent to prison for 4 years for assaulting me and possession of a firearm. He was always a bully and was continually abusive throughout our relationship. I moved away while he was in prison and I was given an indefinite restraining order by the court.

After his release he applied to family court and never even bothered to serve me. I was rung in work by the court asking where I was.

I self represented as I have legal experience. My ex wanted our daughter to live with him.

I was prepared for the fact he would get contact. At the end of the day his abuse was to me. My ex treated it like a day on Jeremy Kyle making up loads of crap, crying and being pathetic about the stress on him.

I simply made a point that I couldn't facilitate contact because of the restraining order and that my family wouldn't because of the extent of the injuries he caused me. I also told the Judge that I was concerned my daughter would witness her Father abusing his new girlfriend as he had a previous conviction for assuaulting a former partner.

It went on for a year. My ex repeatedly didn't turn up. Cafcass did a report recommending no contact.

The Judge went with that. The court order also stated my ex didn't have leave to apply again until he completed courses on DV that he failed to while on probation.

I have heard nothing since. It was all to try and continue to abuse me.

I advise people to self represent if possible. Get a good barrister to help you along the way, but fill out all the forms, file everything yourself and crucially, make sure your voice is heard. The details of your experience are expressed through your voice. When it comes to your children’s rights, you are their strongest advocate. But you’ve got to fight ugly and hard and not be intimidated. If you know your rights and treat the Children’s Act like Gospel, you can achieve what is best, fair, and right.

I would definitely have stayed with my abusive ex husband if I knew just how bad the courts are.

Classic example was my ex after 3 years of shouting fathers for justice was awarded a great contact order, 6 months later he met a new girl and text me that he was not continuing contact. I couldn’t afford to take it back to court to vary the order. When that relationship broke down 2 years later he demanded his weeks contact as it was ‘his time’. Bear in mind he had literally ignored the existence of our child and I ensured they still had a solid bond with ex in laws etc. He didn’t show up for her operation, no happy birthday, no merry Christmas or a general how is she getting on now she’s at school.

I was found in contempt of court when I refused and instead offered to rebuild contact gradually. This was all done through my solicitor so legally documented etc. The judge told me in no uncertain terms to hand child over for the weeks contact or he’d remove her from my care.

My daughters school actually raised child protection concerns. She was setting herself, lashing out, refusing to leave class or go into dads care at the end of the day and social work didn’t entertain it because of the court order.

We did get back to court and got a different judge who varied the order to suit my daughter and allow her to go at a pace she was comfortable with and warned him that had he been the judge residing over his case for reinstating contact he would have varied the order to null contact and to be grateful that any contact was given to him.

I just want to say that I think we are all so fucking brave to have lived and faced what we have. How amazing to represent yourself against your abuser in court.

I'll probably never have another relationship again. I don't trust that I wouldn't end up in a similar position and although I eventually got through it, it has taken its toll on all of us and I wouldn't be able to go through that again. It is severely traumatic.

So in answer to the OP's question of is FC really all that bad....I say, yeah, it really is...and some.