Page 4 | To think family court can't be THAT bad?

Densol57 · 09/04/2023 23:07

Im a professional
Legal
retired now
its BAD
Really really bad. They used Covid as an excuse to be even more really really really bad 😢

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/04/2023 23:09

I've been watching a friend go through this process for 7 years now. The parents can't agree (because her ex is an ass), and keep going back and forth. The judgements are not terrible, but the process is SO SHIT. Delays, postponements, court date cancelled on the day as no judge available, rescheduled for a time when friends' barrister is unavailable, she rearranges everything and then...postponed again. Every time this happens it takes a toll on her, her DC wonders what's going on, her work are tolerant but the amount of time off is problematic...it is such an endless stress. I don't know how she coped with it.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:10

TheVanguardSix · 09/04/2023 22:54

It’s extremely traumatic.
I have achieved what my sexually abused daughter needs; her dad’s loss of PR. But what my DD and I have both lost, soul-deep, along the road to seek what is right, what is just and what is protective, is enormous. The family court has taken the last of my strength and torched it. I’ve been destroyed by the process. It’s like trauma and abuse by the courts on top of the years of trauma and abuse I’ve been trying to escape. Layers of abuse. It’s as if family court insists you remain bound to your abuser.

I got off the other thread because I attacked a DSL and although I’m right 🥳🥳🥳… attacking people on threads isn’t decent at all and it’s not typical of me. So, I’ll probably not engage too much on this one.

I'm very very sorry Vanguard.

The point about further trauma & abuse is one I recognise.

Well done for protecting your DD, I know the cost it's come at.

daffodilandtulip · 09/04/2023 23:13

It's absolutely horrific.

I was assaulted during court ordered contact and told that it was abusive towards my children to report their father to the police.

My son was assaulted during court ordered contact and I was told that it was abusive to make him report his father to the police.

My daughter was told that mummy would go to prison if she wasn't happy at forced contact.

I was told they would be taken into care if I didn't force them to attend. I was ordered to "leave them in the street and drive off if that's what it takes".

It's in a report created by the children's guardian that minor physical abuse is better than having no relationship with a parent.

I was also ordered by court to put pictures around the house of abusive ex in order to be more positive for the children.

Starred7 · 09/04/2023 23:13

It’s that bad

it really is

I had a supportive family and funds to get the best family law barrister in my area £10K++

if I hadn’t. I’d have crumbled.

even my doctor advised against getting support from the NHS for mental health as it ‘would be used against me’

I fear for every mother without my resources inside the system.

i eventually got an apology from the ombudsmen

it didn’t help

it’s a complete shitshow

you can’t even imagine until you’ve been through it and when you find someone in RL who has, you’re bonded forever

Shitsandwiches · 09/04/2023 23:17

@Starred7 totally

@daffodilandtulip that is just insane, how dare they.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:19

@Shitsandwiches

You are right. We've (collectively) done amazingly. But the toll it takes. I'm trying to juggle work & being a parent with the endless court appearances. I feel I am letting my DC down as I'm so sad traumatised & lonely (my family have limited interest or understanding).

The other point is the financial cost. I always felt (after years of insufficient maintenance & messing me around) with a divorce I'd finally have clarity. I knew it wouldn't be 'enough' but I'd find a way to manage. But now I can't see a secure financial situation, despite a good job. I have had to borrow so much money. I know I'm lucky - I've a home, and a job - it just doesn't feel that way. My ex is out & about, social life, holidays, friends. He doesn't see DC so has no impediments to whatever he wants to do. I'm on the road 7 days a week to sports training, matches etc. I sit in the car on my laptop catching up on work & sort lifts for when activities overlap. But I'm engaging in parental alienation 🤦🏻‍♀️

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:21

daffodilandtulip · 09/04/2023 23:13

It's absolutely horrific.

I was assaulted during court ordered contact and told that it was abusive towards my children to report their father to the police.

My son was assaulted during court ordered contact and I was told that it was abusive to make him report his father to the police.

My daughter was told that mummy would go to prison if she wasn't happy at forced contact.

I was told they would be taken into care if I didn't force them to attend. I was ordered to "leave them in the street and drive off if that's what it takes".

It's in a report created by the children's guardian that minor physical abuse is better than having no relationship with a parent.

I was also ordered by court to put pictures around the house of abusive ex in order to be more positive for the children.

💔

I'm so sorry.

Justdontbejudgy · 09/04/2023 23:24

Icedlatteplease · 09/04/2023 20:52

After the initial major investigation,social services had over 5 major referrals from GPs, school etc. At one point the DCs head teacher was going spare.

Even after we could document injuries at the hospital the best SS could do was say DC said Dad did..... Dad says he didn't.

Throughout the whole process the only documented abuser according to SS was me. Because I had stopped contact on their verbal advice (which they said they never said) and had such a poor opinion of dad I was preventing them having a positive relationship.

Show quote history

My goodness! Was the evidence of assault reported to the Police? Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm aghast and the risk of harm they were forcing you to place your children in.

Lovelyring · 09/04/2023 23:27

ChangingUsernamesLikeUnderwear · 09/04/2023 20:14

Nothing in the public sector is perfect, but the rabbit holes on twitter that the OP refers to are posted mostly by deranged conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, I used to think this before I watched a close relative get dragged through the family courts by her abuser and her young DC forced into (unwanted and very damaging) contact with him. I would never have believed the levels of misogyny within the system had I not seen it close up. “Not perfect” doesn’t come close, I’m afraid.

The channel 4 Dispatches programme “Torn Apart: Family Courts Uncovered” is well worth watching.

Just watched the documentary, thanks for mentioning it. It was eye-opening, I had no idea. The scenes with the kids ripped away from their Mum at midnight were completely horrific.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:27

@Starred7

Having borrowed, I too have an expert legal team. My barrister had advised me for 10 years and has been amazing - but appears unprepared for some of what has come up.

My very expensive solicitors are a disgrace. I can't even write about them as I find it so upsetting. What they've done & how they've treated me is worse than my ex.

He had rubbish legal representation. Then he changed late in the proceedings. His new team are competent & effective. I can't believe this idiot has managed to get good representation while mine cause me a nightmare.

I will never, ever get over what they've done.

(We are now in the last phase & there's little more I need from them. Hence not changing. I have previously quoted the Law Society Code of Practice at them & said I'd take their poor performance further. They don't give a shit. I'll ultimately be challenging every € they charge me.)

coodawoodashooda · 09/04/2023 23:32

RabbitWarrren · 09/04/2023 17:44

I have gone down a rabbit hole of threads on here and Twitter accounts of women fighting to get their kids back after abusive and/or rich men have got full custody or majority custody. Some truly awful stories

Am I being a total cow to think there must be more to it? Loving, caring, devoted mothers losing their kids to men who have criminal records? Or even just losing their kids entirely to men who never lifted a finger before?

I don't mean that these stories aren't horrific and unjust. But just that it must be something must be more complex for a mum to lose their kids?

Am I being naive? Victim blaming? Is the family court system really that criminal?

10 years ago I'd have thought the same as you. Op it is horrific.

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:36

The scenes with the kids ripped away from their Mum at midnight were completely horrific.

I'm personally aware of a case where a 7 yo child who had no contact with her violent father (to the mum, not child) since she was 2 was directed to be cared for fully by the father, with no contact with her mum, the only parent she knew since she was 2.

The order was made during the day. The Gardaí (Irish police) arrived with the father to collect the child from school. The school principal was forced to carry the hysterical child to the father's car. She wrote to the court afterwards, saying it was the single worst day of her career.

The mum has not seen her DD in 18 months & has had limited video call contact. Her DD cries on these calls.

This all arose based on a Section 37 report carried out by a 'psychologist' with no proper accreditation who advocated this - and the court supported it.

I thank god that my DC are older, and highly articulate. Also - my ex doesn't really want to see them, so will vanish after the case concludes. It's all only about control but he's done a fair job of destroying us.

Shitsandwiches · 09/04/2023 23:50

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:19

@Shitsandwiches

You are right. We've (collectively) done amazingly. But the toll it takes. I'm trying to juggle work & being a parent with the endless court appearances. I feel I am letting my DC down as I'm so sad traumatised & lonely (my family have limited interest or understanding).

The other point is the financial cost. I always felt (after years of insufficient maintenance & messing me around) with a divorce I'd finally have clarity. I knew it wouldn't be 'enough' but I'd find a way to manage. But now I can't see a secure financial situation, despite a good job. I have had to borrow so much money. I know I'm lucky - I've a home, and a job - it just doesn't feel that way. My ex is out & about, social life, holidays, friends. He doesn't see DC so has no impediments to whatever he wants to do. I'm on the road 7 days a week to sports training, matches etc. I sit in the car on my laptop catching up on work & sort lifts for when activities overlap. But I'm engaging in parental alienation 🤦🏻‍♀️

I know @EarringsandLipstick I know being left to deal alone with the hugeness of this and the fears for the future around finances and quality of life with barely any family support, trying to hold down a job, hold together some sort of acceptable life and be a decent mum. I went through 3 solicitors because they just let you down, don't take you seriously, don't reply to emails, minimise what you're going through - I remember my 2nd solicitor turning on me because my ex was harrassing her and threatened to start charging me if he kept contacting her. I realised then she hadn't taken any of this seriously and wasn't on my side at all.

It will come to an end and you will come out the other side, and it will be a slow recovery - I don't even know what recovery looks like, I'm still a mum battling through life, holding down a job, I don't think I've fully processed it all even now 5 years on I'm still numb.

Obimumkinobi · 09/04/2023 23:56

I thought like many systems it wouldn't be perfect but I genuinely believe most people in this country would be shocked if they saw what went on in family court. It's not like a criminal court - perjury is not "a thing" in family court, so the most outlandish, malicious accusations can be made and often go unchecked, whilst factual court "bundles" containing expert testimony/evidence are often completely disregarded (if read at all).

Domestic abuse and coercive control are often ignored, so family court is often just an arena for perpetrators to start or continue their abuse.

It is a mistake to think family court fails a certain "type" of woman. Middle class, articulate educated women are just as likely to find their lives destroyed, as anyone else. It will likely also end in your financial ruin too.

If you find yourself facing this situation I strongly suggest you go down one of the family court "rabbit holes" online and ask for recommendations for the shit hottest brief you can afford. Be prepared for a fight that may change your life and not for the better.

Thriwit · 10/04/2023 00:04

Until 7 years ago, I’d gone through life thinking that the justice system was there to uphold fairness, the best interests/wellbeing of children, and the law, and that if I was ever involved with them, that’s obviously what would happen. I didn’t give it much thought, just assumed that’s what their role was.

Then I finally separated from my abusive ex, and became involved with the family court system. It was a horrific 5-year experience, which both myself and my children still struggle with. I now have very little faith in the British justice system.

You think the system is there for you, until you actually need it. I feel for everybody who’s been caught up in the shambles of family courts.

Lovelyring · 10/04/2023 00:05

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:36

The scenes with the kids ripped away from their Mum at midnight were completely horrific.

I'm personally aware of a case where a 7 yo child who had no contact with her violent father (to the mum, not child) since she was 2 was directed to be cared for fully by the father, with no contact with her mum, the only parent she knew since she was 2.

The order was made during the day. The Gardaí (Irish police) arrived with the father to collect the child from school. The school principal was forced to carry the hysterical child to the father's car. She wrote to the court afterwards, saying it was the single worst day of her career.

The mum has not seen her DD in 18 months & has had limited video call contact. Her DD cries on these calls.

This all arose based on a Section 37 report carried out by a 'psychologist' with no proper accreditation who advocated this - and the court supported it.

I thank god that my DC are older, and highly articulate. Also - my ex doesn't really want to see them, so will vanish after the case concludes. It's all only about control but he's done a fair job of destroying us.

I don't know how I could survive such an awful thing. I think I'd actually end up on the news after kidnapping the child back and running abroad. The poor poor woman and child.

BlahBlahBlah82 · 10/04/2023 00:05

Obimumkinobi · 09/04/2023 23:56

I thought like many systems it wouldn't be perfect but I genuinely believe most people in this country would be shocked if they saw what went on in family court. It's not like a criminal court - perjury is not "a thing" in family court, so the most outlandish, malicious accusations can be made and often go unchecked, whilst factual court "bundles" containing expert testimony/evidence are often completely disregarded (if read at all).

Domestic abuse and coercive control are often ignored, so family court is often just an arena for perpetrators to start or continue their abuse.

It is a mistake to think family court fails a certain "type" of woman. Middle class, articulate educated women are just as likely to find their lives destroyed, as anyone else. It will likely also end in your financial ruin too.

If you find yourself facing this situation I strongly suggest you go down one of the family court "rabbit holes" online and ask for recommendations for the shit hottest brief you can afford. Be prepared for a fight that may change your life and not for the better.

This is exactly what also happens in SEND Tribunal cases. All sorts of lies can be made up and parents have no legal recourse.

Many parents of disabled children are accused of Fii (formerly Munchausen by Proxy) when only about 2% of cases are found to be true.

The criteria for suspecting a person if Fii also describes an autistic person to a tee.

So, many parents of autistic children are also autistic themselves. By their natural ND behaviours, they get accused of Fii.

SweetSakura · 10/04/2023 00:11

Agreed @Thriwit . Until I ended up in the system after police helped me leave my ex I was proud of the British justice system. I had learnt (at law school) about how it was supposed to work.

It's not limited to the family courts either, equally flawed justice is meted out in the criminal courts (particularly at magistrates level). I read the Secret Barrister recently and their were so many parallels I could draw with the chaos of the family courts.

Cafcass don't seem to have any training in child development, child psychology, questioning children, recognising narcissists, recognising signs of abuse, supporting victims of abuse....

Icedlatteplease · 10/04/2023 00:20

Justdontbejudgy · 09/04/2023 23:24

My goodness! Was the evidence of assault reported to the Police? Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm aghast and the risk of harm they were forcing you to place your children in.

Show quote history

Yes. The police interviewed DD who was 10 at the time. But the Police said they didn't want to take it to court and put my DD through the trauma of testifying against her dad.

They were also aware his mum (pillar of community) would have/was lying and covering for him so the chances of getting a conviction were minimal

Justdontbejudgy · 10/04/2023 00:40

Icedlatteplease · 10/04/2023 00:20

Yes. The police interviewed DD who was 10 at the time. But the Police said they didn't want to take it to court and put my DD through the trauma of testifying against her dad.

They were also aware his mum (pillar of community) would have/was lying and covering for him so the chances of getting a conviction were minimal

Show quote history

The welfare of the child is paramount....or not! I am shocked and disgusted by all of this. Again, not that this makes it any better, but I'm so sorry for you and your children. Child protection is everyone's job but not the family courts apparently!

I've just watched the Dispatches doc off the back of this thread, what an eye opener. The lack of accountability (and questionable expert witnesses) is atrocious, those poor children and their mothers. The misogyny is endemic it would seem.

turbonerd · 10/04/2023 00:50

EarringsandLipstick · 09/04/2023 23:27

@Starred7

Having borrowed, I too have an expert legal team. My barrister had advised me for 10 years and has been amazing - but appears unprepared for some of what has come up.

My very expensive solicitors are a disgrace. I can't even write about them as I find it so upsetting. What they've done & how they've treated me is worse than my ex.

He had rubbish legal representation. Then he changed late in the proceedings. His new team are competent & effective. I can't believe this idiot has managed to get good representation while mine cause me a nightmare.

I will never, ever get over what they've done.

(We are now in the last phase & there's little more I need from them. Hence not changing. I have previously quoted the Law Society Code of Practice at them & said I'd take their poor performance further. They don't give a shit. I'll ultimately be challenging every € they charge me.)

This is so true.

Not in UK, though we lived on UK when ex tried to kill me.

But in my country I had to change legal representation 3 times. The solicitors did not believe me, did not do the work they said they were doing (because papers were not filed nor sent), had secret meetings with the other solicitor and judge (different system to UK) and portrayed me as insane.

The psychologist experts who were supposed to protect my children threatened me and lied to me.
Because the crimes ex had comitted were in UK so different jurisdiction it did not matter that he had tried to kill me whilst the children were watching.

When I was interviewed by the psychologists they accused me of abusing my ex and harming the children.

To protect my DD from his sexual abuse and rapes (he only did this to me, I got her away from him) I accepted a diagnosis as psychotic. The psychologists testifued that my fear of him was completely a figment of my imagination and that I was in fact completely crazy. But since my DD is severely autistic it would be detrimental to her if I ended up sectioned, since I am her main carer.

This was in 2017.

I have talked about these things a bit detached because it is preposterous, but these last weeks have been horrendous because my boys have both decided to go live with their Dad and I realise that even though I have tried to keep it together I am now coming apart at the seams. Spit, grit and duct tape only lasts so long apparently. The boys are just under and a bit over 18, so can choose what they want. But it hurts

As another poster said, the betrayal and abuse from these institutions were at least equally traumatising as the abuse ex put me through.
I am broken. My mental health is shot. My physical health is shot. I can’t sleep and I can’t work.
And I actually have remarried and my DH is kind and supportive.

The strength in you who go it alone - I am just in awe of how you cope.

SpringMum30 · 10/04/2023 00:56

RabbitWarrren · 09/04/2023 17:44

I have gone down a rabbit hole of threads on here and Twitter accounts of women fighting to get their kids back after abusive and/or rich men have got full custody or majority custody. Some truly awful stories

Am I being a total cow to think there must be more to it? Loving, caring, devoted mothers losing their kids to men who have criminal records? Or even just losing their kids entirely to men who never lifted a finger before?

I don't mean that these stories aren't horrific and unjust. But just that it must be something must be more complex for a mum to lose their kids?

Am I being naive? Victim blaming? Is the family court system really that criminal?

Not sure if you've seen my recent thread but yes it is that bad. The focus is contact at all costs. I have raised concerns regarding abuse as have my children. I have some evidence in that there was police intervention, ss involvement, protective orders granted etc. My ex is still given the benefit of the doubt and contact has been increased. Women are vilified for raising concerns as it prolongs the court process. Abuse allegations are not properly explored. Mothers are ignored and made to feel guilty for even addressing concerns. If they allow contact they are not safeguarding the child. If they don't allow contact they are alienating the parent. The whole experience is truly horrific and traumatising

SpringMum30 · 10/04/2023 00:58

Wittow · 09/04/2023 19:36

There's no way anyone would get away with actual assault in a courtroom.

Family Court is fair, in my professional experience. With children's welfare as the "paramount principle" determining decisions. But, it's not a beauty contest. Good enough parenting is good enough.

Family court is anything but fair. It's a corrupt, flawed and misogynistic system that does not protect women and children

Equinoxsox · 10/04/2023 01:02

I've read the whole thread.
I left my abusive ex earlier this year. He is using every trick in the book to try to get revenge on me for daring to leave him. I'm starting to wish I'd put up and shut up until the children were older. Our court process has only just started. I got advised it would take between 6 months and a year. Why do some cases take years and years? I definitely feel like the process is allowing him to abuse me further. Why do people tell you to leave an abusive relationship when this happens?
I'm terrified right now.