To think family court can't be THAT bad?

[RabbitWarrren]

I have gone down a rabbit hole of threads on here and Twitter accounts of women fighting to get their kids back after abusive and/or rich men have got full custody or majority custody. Some truly awful stories

Am I being a total cow to think there must be more to it? Loving, caring, devoted mothers losing their kids to men who have criminal records? Or even just losing their kids entirely to men who never lifted a finger before?

I don't mean that these stories aren't horrific and unjust. But just that it must be something must be more complex for a mum to lose their kids?

Am I being naive? Victim blaming? Is the family court system really that criminal?

The law needs to change. Abusive parents are not safe parents this is the problem.

True. They are also forced to 'coparent' with these abusive ex partners and are supposed to build an amicable relationship it's horrendous

I truly relate to everything you said here. I walked out of the family court in shock and utter disbelief. I was completely traumatised

I remember a few years ago on the news an amber alert for twin girls who had been abducted by their mother. She was protecting her daughters from being sexually abused and raped by their father who was given full custody by the family courts despite the girl’s allegations of him sexually abusing them and the substantial medical evidence of him sexually abusing them.

The doctor who helped the mother was arrested and the mother was arrested too. And the girls returned to their father.

Following is copy and paste:

Several years ago I became aware that [victim twins] had alleged serious sexual assault by their father. I was also aware that the Family Court had ordered that they live full-time with their father,” Mr Pridgeon claims in court documents.
“I also became aware that [the victim twins’] mother had breached a Family Court order and taken them into her protective custody and went into hiding.

https://amp.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/nsw-doctor-accused-of-hiding-kids-sues-senior-queensland-magistrate-20220407-p5abpm.html

Yabvu

I have professional experience. It is appalling and will be the next big scandal.

Abusive men are routinely given contact. Victims lose residency if they object. Cafcass are most definitely anti women. Traumatised children are forced into contact with their abusers. I know of one child whose father served a sentence for raping her sister yet her mother was threatened with residency reversal if she did not encourage contact.

Its not conspiracy theorists. Its a real life scandal of epic proportion but fortunately its already blowing up.

I just want to be clear that whatever article I find about this kidnapping it says that the alleged sexual assaults are unsubstantiated. I can’t find any of the original articles that I had read at the time. Hopefully one day the truth will prevail.

It is interesting that the police were not concerned about the mother posing any risk to the children. And yet she had no legal right to any custody of her children.

Copy and paste:

Although it was never believed the girls were in physical danger, "they’re not lawfully entitled to be in her custody and that’s what gives us the most concern," authorities said at the time.

https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/grandparents-hope-for-custody-as-queensland-twins-found-after-four-years-20180504-p4zdi1.html

The threat to children is not just anecdotal. The Australian Law Reform Commission review found that one in five parents reported safety concerns for their children and/or themselves as a result of court-ordered contact with the other parent.

When family law orders are made, children are ordered to comply – even when they are openly terrified. So they kick and scream at handovers. They plead with their protective parent not to hand them over. They hide under the bed at handover time. They call police. They self-harm. They may even be prevented by the court from accessing medical care and counselling. This is how weird – and destructive – parts of the family law system has become.
Protective parents spend several years – and sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars – trying to protect them. Sometimes it’s to no avail – they watch helplessly as their children develop medical conditions and regress into traumatised states, with no power to intervene. When an abused parent leaves, they do so to protect themselves and their children. But in the end, because the family law system is so dangerously inconsistent, they can’t guarantee that they will be able to protect their children. That’s why so many abused parents stay long past the time they would like to have left.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/15/children-and-family-law-how-can-you-share-parenting-with-an-abusive-parent

Above is copy and paste from the article. Not my words. Below is in my words.

Women and children simply are not safe in a world that favours men (even horrifically abusive ones) over women and regards children as having lesser rights than an adult.

That is what it comes down to.

Thank you 👏🏽 that's why I was encouraged to start another thread about this. The more we talk, the more exposure the better

My experience of family court, which is a single experience as a party to proceedings and a single experience as a witness in a different case, was that despite the fact that I couldn't afford representation and represented myself against a barrister, that the system allowed me to say my piece , but was clearly focussed on the child, rather than the adults. I got the outcome that I wanted, so clearly there is some bias in my feelings about it, but the judge was very even handed and dispassionate in their summing up. When I was a witness in a different case, I heard the most fanciful allegations being repeated (claiming that a relative had destroyed medical records which proved that the person I was a witness for had physically injured the other party - as a HCP I cannot begin to tell you how absurd and impossible that is: not only would it need to destroy a variety of records in various bits of the hospital on paper and electronic systems that leave an audit trail of access, but also the communication with the patient's GP and social services, which presumably they destroyed in some type of mission Impossible type infiltration to those organisations): in that case the person I was a witness for won access against the other parent's wishes

I think that if you read things like the Secret Barrister book, you will also realise that much of the stuff about the "family court decisions/process" has very little to do with the family court and more to do with the way our law system is set up. Of course, it's not going to be enough for one partner to say that the other one is abusive/unsuitable without evidence, or it will come down to a credibility issue in court, which will always have less certainty in it. It is right and proper that the law does not automatically assume that the mother (or father) is always telling the truth. Nor is it true that either parent automatically 100% has the best interests of the child at heart, unfortunately.

The judge needs to work within the confines of what the law says.

Far out @glossypeach It's almost spiteful of the judge to do that. I hope you're coping ok.

I think it is all about punishing women. You made your bed now lie in it mentality.

I think a lot of peoples experiences though is that the abuser has been assumed to be talking the truth. That was my experience. My ex declared things without evidence. Sold a story of being a wounded but changed man and he was believed. The magistrates that make the decisions don't know the law that is why there is a legal advisor present. The legal advisor may not even be as knowledgeable as the barristers representing parties. In my case, my barrister was legally the most qualified and argued on the basis of the law. This at times was ignored because it didn't fit within they outcome they weee obviously pushing for

My abusive ex took me through the family court several times. On each occasion, the judges saw through his lies and found in my favour. So I can't fault them. The judges were respectful towards me each time.

But cafcass on the other hand were awful, rang me up saying they'd sent me an appointment letter (that I'd never received) demanded I spoke to them on the phone there and then despite the fact I was out and it was a highly sensitive conversation. Their report contained numerous inaccuracies and was even sent to the wrong family court!

I would encourage anyone with negative experiences with Cafcass to formally complain. I'm in the process of doing this and not sure it will amount to anything but if there is an influx of appeals after reports made they will have to pay attention at some point

@ZombieKettle that's bought back a memory of having to have a conversation with cafcass on the telephone in the school playground while waiting to pick up my older child, with younger child holding my hand. I told them exactly why it wasn't a good time but it was made clear that was my only chance before they wrote up the report. So you can imagine my astonishment when they spoke in the same report about going round and having a lovely cup of tea at abusive ex's house - particularly as we only lived 5 minutes apart!

Mine was in school playground too! I'd just dropped child off, then phone rang and it was cafcass saying we had an appointment and they'd sent me a letter, I said 'what letter?' - I'd not received it. But they absolutely insisted I spoke to them right then. Gave me no choice. So I had to leave playground and find a quiet corner. Their report had huge errors in it. For example, it said my ex had not had any police involvement (words to that affect). He'd been given an harassment warning from the police! I emailed cafcass with corrections but they were not interested. This was 3 years ago. Wish I'd complained at the time but I was under enormous stress and couldn't face it.

These stories are beyond horrific. I'm so sorry. Unimaginable trauma. The system is absolutely fucked!!. But also the individuals involved...how could they do that...how can a police officer drag a screaming 7 year old into the arms of a dangerous estranged father and not speak up???

Also...makes all the thousands of threads of people saying LTB read a little differently....People saying things like "stop using the kids as your excuse for not leaving" or "i wish my parents had split up when I was young" etc....that advice isn't simple/right necessarily??

I hope my OP didn't offend anyone.

The misogyny is unreal. A story above about a judge saying "men should be able to keep their family surname to continue the family bloodline" or something....what?? Is this the middle ages?

Put up with abuse - you're responsible. Leave the abuse - you're a mad witch alienating your kids from their dad?

It's a wonder we aren't all on the streets.

This is one of the reasons I’ve decided to try and make my marriage work, despite the lack
of help and support lately and the blatant lack of regard he’s had for me.

I'm going to sound like a crazed conspiracy theorist now but his family are considered “pillars of the community” (unlike mine) and some are Freemasons.

I'm so glad you have come to this conclusion this is spot on! This is what we need people to understand. I also was oblivious until I was sat in the courtroom and experienced the trauma for myself. I wish I had known what the process would look like. I would have spoken up for sure in the courtroom whether they wanted to hear it or not!
One thing for sure now is that I will not stay silent. I will speak up to whoever is ready to listen and hopefully the system will be changed and we will see some form of justice

I agree @RabbitWarrren . People need to understand that if we "LTB" we are not actually going to escape the abuse and we might make our children more vulnerable. I have written to women's aid too,.to ask them to understand that they need to also focus on what happens after mother's "escape".

I don't regret leaving, his abuse left me suicidal. But I wish I had understood how vulnerable I would leave my little children. I might have tried to wait until they were a little older and better able to speak up.

And I hate saying that. Because underneath it all I want to be able to tell women to walk at the first sign of abuse.

Dont be terrified. It us awful but you are in it now so you need to prepare yourself and remain as calm as possible, not easy I know. Write notes. Contact DV support amd speak to your doctor. They kept me sane. X

Same thing happened to me. Then the abuser told court the reason it never got prosecuted is cos i scripted the kids. Completely untrue but even if i did then i would have been guilty of child neglect and the police would have reported me. Court 100% went with this and had a right go at me for doing something i never did. Completely disregarding the physical attack my child was interviewed for.

You have to be unmovable. It is so endless.

When I worked in a role that brought me into contact with CAFCASS I can recall 3 families where the CAFCASS report and the decision of the family court was extremely concerning. Two were families with a caring mother where contact with an abusive father was granted ( one got main residence). The man who got residence had horrible parents backing him and I think they were lying. The third case involved a mother who I thought had some sort of personality disorder and wanted to punish the father and get him completely off the scene. The father in the third case was a black man and the mother was white. I don’t know if race was a factor but the mother was believed about everything without any evidence to back her. I just felt that the CAFCASS officers were too ready to believe what they were told or had prejudices (e.g. that contact with the father was always in the children’s interest). The poor children were confused, anxious and depressed.

This is absolutely it: the abuser is believed.
I was not believed despite mountains of evidence: medical records, police reports, children’s services, court orders - because they were from another country they were dismissed out of hand and the «professional» all testified I had made it all up.

This is the UK to a Scandinavian country!
My experience in the UK Prior was not much better to be honest: told I would lose the children if I allowed him back home, then told I had to accept meetings in a children’s centre with ex’s Mum as the supervisor etc.

I could hardly believe it. The whole process was over 4 years and I still can not fathom what the fuck was going on. My family lost all faith in the Justice system snd my DH too. He has had the opposite, where they both wanted 50/50, then the kids are more at ours because Mum is displaying symptoms of narcisism and the children can’t cope (and neither can she; two of them she insisted had to be here 70%), yet she refuses to change the papers so that the child maintenance may be adjusted + she takes one of the children’s coeliac allowance from the government.
DH wanted to take the case to court to settle it, but realised it was no point.