Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

I agree she should return to the UK @Thebestwaytoscareatory . We brought that Smith woman back to Ireland. No point in pretending she is not 'ours'.

I just Googled isis women and found a few articles. Grim stuff. One of the women who tortured the pilot was British - Umm Salama - according to another ex fighter known as Hajer.

This delightful person said she ' enjoyed torturing Syrian women , especially in front of their husbands or fathers. ' Although according to her the European women were the most brutal.

But then she would say that? The myriad pseudonyms make it harder to unravel. Sally Ann Jones had several including al Britani. The article with the interview with Hajer is from Punch 2017. But I can't link.

Other informative pieces in Daily Beast and al Jazeera. Another point - the west is part of the problem. Our media cheered the headchoppers on when they were toppling Gaddafi for example. Some of the same people turned up in Syria and Iraq. I miss Robert Fisk. He knew this stuff.

Oh my God, the lot of you sound like a bunch of small-minded bigots to be honest. And at least gather some facts before spouting off. We certainly know that she didn't burn the Jordanian pilot because she was still in Britain at the time. There's zero evidence that she was part of any female brigade. There's zero evidence that she was in the morality police. Actually, she couldn't speak Arabic and didn't attend religious classes, so it's highly unlikely and all testimony points to the contrary.

Perhaps people are mixing her up with her school friend, Sharmeena. But it makes me sad to be honest, all this xenophobia and "let her rot", "she's a bad person". I find it sad that people think like this and peddle and peddle untruths and half-truths and rumours as fact.

No one who thinks she should be returned to the UK is saying she should be allowed to walk away from her alleged crimes, nor is anyone falling for a sob story. She was born in the UK, brought up in the UK, educated in the UK, recruited to ISIS in the UK and joined them from the UK. She is a UK problem and should be dealt with by the UK.

The only people who want her to walk away free are those who argue against brining her back here to face justice.

this 100%

The removal of her passport was an immoral act on behalf of our government. It was a classic washign their hand sof a problem they didn't want to deal with.
It also has worrying precedents for others who hold 2 passports.

And again - we have allowed back 100s of ISIS fighters who were men.
Has the government ever explained why they have allowed some back but not her?
No, because they can't there is no justification.

Do show me the evidence that she helped stitch people into suicide jackets? As far as I'm aware that is all hearsay

I believe you're right, mycoffeecup, but it's very noticeable that you've chosen this allegation to ask for proof and neglected the countless claims about the children she lost ...

She showed Josh Baker photos.

Also, she was married and spent most of her time in Syria at home with her coercive husband and presumably no birth control. I think it is unlikely that she wouldn't have had multiple pregnancies.

I think she's both. And I think she's our problem and should be brought home and dealt with in the UK. What we have done to her is appalling- what she did was awful- but leaving her in limbo in the camp and pretending she's not our problem is shameful.

According to her comrade Hajer she was indeed part of Al Khansaa as was Sharmeema , Sally and the 4th girl whose name escapes me..

Of course her citizenship shouldn't be revoked. Otherwise wtf is it worth? But let's not delude ourselves about her character. So what if she can't recite the Quran. Half the Isis mob seem to have been cokeheads anyway.

Not like they really gaf about religion. This situation is tailor made for sadists and psychopaths.

What's your source for that assertion?

I'm assuming that the camp would be able to verify that she gave birth to a child and that he died - he was taken to hospital outside the camp in his last night of life and there would be a record of that. I think she showed photos to Josh Baker in the podcast, though of course I agree they could have been any children. I believe that ISIS actually kept amazingly good records of things like medical care - these may be in the hands of coalition forces, I'm not sure. So I'd imagine that the 3rd baby could be verified beyond doubt, at a minimum.

Correction. Her friends Amira and Kadiza. Presumed dead I suppose ?

Kadiza died in a bomb strike before ISIS fell - Shamima and Amira identified her body

Recent interview of Sharmeena Begum by Josh Baker - Sharmeena said that Amira died fighting

I believe that ISIS actually kept amazingly good records of things like medical care - these may be in the hands of coalition forces, I'm not sure. So I'd imagine that the 3rd baby could be verified beyond doubt, at a minimum

This could well be true, and if so it's all the more surprising that Shamima's not produced anything except a photo - which as you rightly say could be of anyone

I realise of course that the authorities may not share records with her unless it suits, but all the same I'd have thought there'd be something, even if was just just a witness account from someone reputable

Maybe she doesn't feel it's necessary though; after all countless people seem prepared to take her word for it with no evidence at all, so why bother?

Wasn't aware she had to provide public "evidence" of her children.

Like I said, with a coercive husband, no birth control and a duty to provide children for the caliphate, I'd be more surprised if she hadn't had multiple children!

She is both.

The majority of criminals have had shit lives.

Foursome the route to criminality is grooming. For others it's. Coping mechanism fro trauma and abuse. For others it's what they've learnt from parents. There are many many routes to criminality but trauma, neglect, abuse or grooming pretty much unite them all

Trying again with hopefully no typos! ..

She is both.

The majority of criminals have had shit lives.

For some the route to criminality is grooming. For others it's a coping mechanism for trauma and abuse. For others it's what they've learnt from parents.

There are many many routes to criminality but trauma, neglect, abuse or grooming pretty much unite them all

So I have listened to quite a few of these podcasts now and I am starting to form a different viewpoint/theory on what could have happened.

SB was a young, naive teenager who already had her best friend in Syria who had joined IS. Her best friend, Sharmeena, initially did not want to travel to Syria alone and wanted all her friends to go with her. At this point, the other 3 girls said they were not going. Once Sharmeena was in Syria, she was telling SB that it was great out there and that she should come out to be with her. At this point, Sharmeena was still living in the Madafa alongside other unmarried women. By this point, she will likely have not seen what ISIS were capable of and the life that she would end up living. She managed to convince SB to join her and they were reunited in the Madafa.

All the girls were then married off as that was the ONLY way out of this Madafa and by this point, there was no way the girls could have decided to return to the UK as their passports and documents had been taken off them. Even if SB had made it to the Syria border, she would not have been able to travel anywhere. When SB was married off to Yago, he was essentially in charge. She had to obey him and what he said is what went whether SB liked it or not. It appeared she also lived with a very dangerous man who was an armourer for ISIS while Yago was in prison. She developed a loyalty to these people as she literally had no one else to turn to. You could perhaps compare it to Stockholm Syndrome where you form close alliances with the dangerous people in order to survive. I would imagine that if her husband told her to do something, like sew suicide vests, she had very little choice to do that otherwise she would have most likely been tortured in the Black Stadium or killed.

I think I am leaning more towards she was a naive, young girl who had no idea what she was getting herself into (how can you know unless you have experienced it?) and she was also trusting in her best friend telling her that it was a good life, which she probably believed herself at that point.

SB has been through trauma that most women could not comprehend and whilst I do not believe she should be allowed to come back to the UK and be a free woman, I do believe that she should come back and be tried here in the UK. However, I appreciate that there is perhaps a lot of intelligence information that would alter my view. I can only go on the information that is available to the public.

Have you heard the final episode, in which Baker has traced and contacted Sharmeena Begum? She reportedly escaped from the camp and is fundraising for ISIS from Syria. She (assuming it really is her) spoke disparagingly of Shamima, calling her a 'dog' and essentially saying she was useless and a drain on the state because she never did anything, she just stayed at home because her husband told her to. Her husband sounds like a total creep, but considering he was imprisoned by ISIS and accused of being a spy, I suspect he was also a bit of a cast out and that they (as a couple) weren't privy to much.

The episode with Kadiza Sultana is horrible. She sounds like a little kid on the phone recordings and was obviously terrified but didn't dare to try to escape in case she was caught.

The point I found SB most evasive on was the Egyptian arms dealer. It seemed to me that she knew who and what he was but she doesn't want to admit it because it would make her look worse.

They don't strike me as having gone into it with their eyes wide open. Even Sharmeena, who seems to be very radicalised still, has a sad back story. Lost her mum and hated her father remarrying a few months later, left her father's home at 15 and got sucked into extremism. Of course she could and should have known better, but someone should have noticed. They were all minors - and everyone around them failed in their duty of care.

She was a groomed and trafficked child and has also committed crimes. She should be returned to the UK to be tried for her crimes, served her sentence and undergo rehabilitation. She should not have had her citizenship revoked.

I mean somebody did notice. It had been flagged that these three girls were at risk of radicalisation and leaving the country just as their friend had done. The police were aware. So it’s not that nobody noticed, more that nothing was done. Part of me wonders if that is part of the reason it is being pushed so hard that she is so awful/must never come back/she is being made into a terrifying villain. It definitely deflects from the massive safeguarding failings of our society in their duty of care to these children.

The problem with her is that she's extremely unlikeable.

She's a victim but she acts like an utter arse, she's young.

@bottleofbeer since when did anyone's right to citizenship or a fair trial depend on being likable?

This is such a depressing statement.

True though and it’s not helping her.

Someone's fate should not be decided on their likability. I feel she is being punished for being a woman - somehow a woman who does something criminal - usually to support a man, gets a harder time - needs to feel extreme punishment by the media especially. Like she let down society's fantasy of the pure maternal figure. She's up against misogyny, and racism and I suspect she is not NT - which doesn't help either.

Of course she’s not being punished for being a woman. Jack Letts is a man who also had his citizenship revoked.