Is Shamima Begum a victim or a criminal?

[ShamimaBegu]

Just listened to the podcasts about Shamima Begum. How can Shamima Begum not be viewed as a victim of grooming and sex trafficking? How on earth would a 15 year old got to Syria without adults making it happen?
She was married off and became pregnant on multiple occasions. She surely is as much a victim as a criminal?

I just listened to the podcast and it was very interesting. Made me appreciate more how young girls or boys can get into these situations but I have to agree with the journalist, that she was still part of it and there are still consequences for that.

Does anyone have the link to the full interview with Shamimas husband that the journalist makes reference to?

I agree with you. If she was white she would be seen for what she is, a victim of grooming and child exploitation.

This!

Priti Patel also said that she stands firm in her decision due to all the intelligence information she has seen, that we will never be privy to.

Yes obviously I believe anything they both say 😒

Boris Johnsons government would never lie for political expedience!

I was just going to say this 😂 why does everyone suddenly trust the government to tell the truth?

It appears in the podcast “I am not a monster.” There’s two series. The first one concentrates on an American woman who took her children there. They are all now back in the USA and she is in jail there. The second series is all about Shamima Begum. They spend a lot of time trying to corroborate her version of events, speaking to people who knew her wile in Syria etc. And there is a long interview with her husband. Each series is about 10 episodes long. It’s on BBC sounds.

the 'bad people' episode on this was very interesting as well.

I think both things can be true - she was a vulnerable teenager and was groomed and trafficked but also that she poses a risk now.

howevr, I profoundly disagree with the passport issue. it is wrong on so many levels to remove citisenship and to leave a person stateless.

Priti Patel, that paragon of legislative and diplomatic competency. So committed that she even holds meetings when she's on holiday! Such a good grasp of international law.

I am constantly astonished that people continue to believe a child who was the victim of grooming and trafficking is anything other than a victim.

I also strongly suspect that if she were a white hurl she’d have a lot more sympathy.

Sam Elhassani, while I don't believe for one minute that she was ideologically committed to Daesh, was way more culpable than Shamima Begum. She was an adult and one with reasonable means and intelligence. And she's allowed back, but then the US cannot palm her off on someone else.

As for all the stuff about "the Syrians have the right to try her for her crimes", it seems fairly evident that the Syrians are desperate to get rid of all these people in the camps.

The recent ruling has nothing whatever to do with Shamima Begum's guilt or actions; it's a technical ruling - that the previous decision was not invalid. SB left the UK to join a terrorist organisation, and her citizenship has been removed, which is a valid decision because she is (or has the right to claim to be) a citizen of another country and is not therefore "stateless".

I'm interested in what the take is on Sharmeena Begum. Has her citizenship been revoked? I haven't heard so.

The government are advised by security forces and I’m going to believe they know a lot more then you or I .

At the time Jack Letts was stripped of his citizenship, quite a loud message was sent out . If you traveled to Syria in support of isis , you risk not being allowed back . Jack was white and started getting involved at 16 . I absolutely do not believe these decisions are anything to do with race but in the interest of the greater good . Of course shamimas legal team are going with , she was groomed but it’s said by others who know far more then I do , she had her eyes wide open on what she was doing .

What Priti Patel said in feb
“Having seen the “security and intelligence behind some of these decisions”, she added: “As much as it may be uncomfortable for some, as long as someone is a threat and an individual is a threat to our country, and a threat to our citizens, I think it’s right that they are not brought back here.
“I just believe that we have to do everything we can to protect our country.”
She also said the “implications” of bringing someone like Begum back to the UK and the resources required if that were to happen would be “absolutely phenomenal”.

The problem is we expect our government to act freely of discrimination, sexism, racism etc. however I’m practice the opposite is usually true

@babybythesea Thank you 😊. I am going to have a look for it and have a listen.

Andrew Drury
A British filmmaker who has met and interviewed ISISbride Shamima Begum numerous times said that he first felt sorry for her, but now believes she is 'playing the victim card in an attempt to get back to the UK'.
'Adventure tourist' Andrew Drury, who used WhatsApp to speak to the 23-year-old before numerous visits, said that he is convinced the ISIS bride is 'bitter and twisted'.
He has travelled to Syria's Al-Roj camp to speak to Begum multiple times after she left the UK in 2015 with two school friends.
Mr Drury has now said that he sees her as manipulative, after she criticised the war in Ukraine for shifting the focus from her plight, said she no longer feels sad about the death of her children, and repeatedly asked for Western clothes.
He said that he felt 'sorry' for Begum and had formed a close relationship with other foreign jihadi brides at the Syrian camp.
Mr Drury said at the time that the UK has a responsibility to bring British jihadi brides like Begum and their children 'back home' because it was not fair to leave them 'to be a danger to the Syrians and the Kurds' who have 'enough danger to deal with already'.
However his view has since changed, and believes that Begum is a 'manipulative personality playing the victim card in an attempt to get back to the UK'.
He added that he feels 'guilty' about giving Begum a hug.
'After extensive face-to-face meetings and a slew of bizarre text messages, I am convinced she is a bitter, twisted character with deep psychological problems,'
Mr Drury said that he was 'floored' when she told him that the death of her three children no longer makes her sad, and that she had 'moved on'.
This, he said, began to change his view that Begum is a victim.”

Its not just the government and security forces who support her not coming back . It may just be like Jack Lett they are too far radicalized and beyond help . I don’t know what the answer is , I believe even in a prison she would be a danger to others .

It's odd that people feel the need to bend over backwards for somebody who attempts to justify the Manchester bombing and helped stitch innocent women into suicide bomb jackets, so they couldn't get out if they changed their mind.

If we have a duty to her then surely we have a duty to the many ex veterans living on the streets dealing with severe PTSD and substance abuse issues, often caused by what they saw while on tour dealing with people like Shamima and her friends.

If she was vulnerable when she started to take on the messaging, it was because it appealed to something that was already in her. She comes across as extremely narcissistic, sociopathic, only concerned with her own wants and extremely immature - almost deficient emotionally. She's not a good person. The extreme ideology she chased - yes CHASED of her own free will, was just a channel for her personality to indulge itself in. If she'd never gone over, she would most likely still have evolved into a manipulative, self absorbed and selfish person who would be damaging to those around her. I have zero sympathy and zero respect or compassion.

She was a child when she was trafficked- she is a victim.

It doesn’t really work like that. You can’t say ‘oh we don’t have a duty to deal with home grown problems because what about our duty to veterans!’ Our country has many duties to all its citizens. Otherwise you could say ‘oh if we have a duty to veterans who chose to join the army surely we have a duty to people in poverty through no choice of their own!’ Of course we do. We have a duty to everyone.

Thats all irrelevant, our society and prisons are full of people who would do us harm & we then release them, regardless, we also let them into the country with little or no checks.

She is a British citizen and is our responsibility and it still doesn't answer the question why 100s of male ISIS fighters have been allowed back into the UK with no restrictions or trials.

If she has done terrible deeds and supports terrorism, i 'd prefer her in a UK jail indefinitely than being able to carry out her desires and influence others in Syria,

ISIS ideology has not gone away, even if the name might change.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar do show me the evidence that she helped stitch people into suicide jackets? As far as I'm aware that is all hearsay.

You don't need to be brave about strong to torture a defenceless prisoner.

That poor Jordanian pilot was tortured by women before being burned alive in a cage.

Was she one of them ? We'll never know -although she was in the al Khansaa Brigade I think.

Yes you can be a victim and a still be a perpetrator alas.

Willing participant in and/or facilitator of a holocaust not only of death, but of the most brutally sadistic torture, rape and dismemberment of men, women, children including babies, and whole families in front of each other. People who took part in that effort are on a level with nazi war criminals.

At some point we become liable for our own actions. Past that point a perpetrator of a serious crime cannot cite their abuse, grooming, trauma or anything else and simply walk away.

She describes being "fine with" evidence of these crimes in her daily life (her own words). When other British persons fled to join ISIS/L they were at times summarily targeted/killed and nobody was concerned except for the tragedy of people near them dying. The fact this person can weave a sob story and get people sympathizing with here is more an example of how frivolously self-destructive our collective mindset has become than anything else.

This. And it’s misleading to say it’s not women’s role. Remember Kipling over 100 years ago

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains

The leader of the ISIS female battalion , Sally Ann Jones , was a white British woman. I have zero sympathy for her.

I'll save my tears for her 12 year old son , Joe , who she dragged out there with her. Both believed killed in a missile strike.

No one who thinks she should be returned to the UK is saying she should be allowed to walk away from her alleged crimes, nor is anyone falling for a sob story. She was born in the UK, brought up in the UK, educated in the UK, recruited to ISIS in the UK and joined them from the UK. She is a UK problem and should be dealt with by the UK.

The only people who want her to walk away free are those who argue against brining her back here to face justice.