What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

There's a couple of grammars near us. All the local over-pushy parents clamour over places by paying for tutoring their poor children from the age of 7 or so to pass the 11 plus.

Apparently it's because the 11plus is considerably higher than what knowledge we'd typically now expect our 11 year olds to have. (Not sure if that because of declining standards or not)

From what I hear the ones near us have issues with bullying and drugs, make of that what you will, and one locally just also lost its ofsted outstanding, so let's see if they're still desperate to send their kids there now it's rated the same as the local comp.

NB I wasn't studying maths or sciences at A Level.

They're not a "thing" where I grew up either. We haven't had a grammar school system in Scotland since the late 60s.

But I read, and have a curious nature and try to find things out rather than posting inane questions which are easily google-able on MN.

I grew up in a non grammar school area and now live in another non grammar school area.
I have always known what they are!

As a child of the 70s I remember people debating the closing of many grammar schools and whether it was a good or bad thing. I've always thought comprehensives were a good thing.

Same but then there are no private schools around here either.

I’ve also learnt how to spell grammar correctly so it’s not all bad😬

You seem like a good sport, OP.

Some people may be being snotty but written errors can irk if repeated too much. To use a school based pun it's like fingernails down a blackboard to pedants.

'SPAG' is an acronym for spelling, punctuation, grammar....an aspect of marking academic work/exam scores sometimes. So, it's sort of ironic not to know how to spell 'grammar'! 😁

I
Grammar schools are private schools in my area. Also had no idea they err otherwise until Mumsnet!

You're asking great questions, it's turned into a really informative thread - even for someone like me who already knows what grammar schools are.

Stay curious OP, it's a brilliant quality.

While this is indeed a very detailed breakdown, I just wanted to tell @BlackBarbies that it isn't 100% accurate. As is evident from posters on your thread, lots and lots of people have no idea what grammar schools are, so it's perfectly possible to find yourself in a grammar school area without knowing it – it's nonsense to think that all DCs at a grammar school are there because their parents have bought a house in the right area.

It's also rubbish to say that DCs from state primary schools have very little chance of passing the exam without spending lots of money on tuition – that depends entirely on what part of the country you are in, and what type of grammar school you are applying to. In Bucks, around 30% of DCs go to a grammar school, and the majority of them will have been state-educated at primary level.

There are so many differences in education from county to county, and even in different areas within the same county, that generalisations which attempt to cover the whole of England are never going to be appropriate.

Literally no need for this

Well actually there literally is

Tbh I'll never know if they did mention it to my mum or not, but my mum later reported having no idea of it. My Year 6 teacher was a great teacher, so I don't really know what to believe.

What's the point of having mumsnet if everyone just googled everything instead, why are you here on the thread if it is of no interest to you?

I hadn't heard of grammar schools until a friend moved to Kent.

Am I right in thinking that if you live in Central London, you have no chance of really attending one?

Calm down snotty

Possibly its an age thing. I may have been aware of them because both my parents attended them.
MIL did also. FIL went to a technical school - these seem to have completely died out.

OK I'll bite.

If that's aimed at the likes of me (who made the cesspit comment) - then you're barking up the wrong tree.

I come from a low-income family in one of the poorest parts of the country. I had a number of adverse childhood experiences, at times requiring help from a social worker. But I also have brains - and fortitude and drive and went on to become the first person in my family to go to university (2:1 from a Russell Group and straight on to my masters).

I'm now at the top of my profession and have a beautiful home in one of the most desirable parts of the country. There is no jealousy here, just sadness and fury that snobbery like this still exists.

Grammar schools are state schools but many retained their old names when they became independents so Manchester Grammar, Huddersfield Grammar, Leeds Grammar, Bradford Grammar as all private schools - fee paying. Some are highly selective.

This was my experience too. We couldn't afford tutoring and the primary was no help as the head didn't believe in grammars. I found bits out from speaking to other parents. Nearly everyone else got paid tutors for their kids. Some got in, some didn't. I didn't want that intensive tutoring for my kids because I didn't want mine to struggle when they got there.

I do feel that parents who research schools, including grammar entry criteria, are those most likely to get their child into a decent school. Plenty of parents don't really care, and this is where the issue lies. If schools prepped ALL the children, regardless of parental involvement, then this truly would mean that the naturally brightest would get in.

When I went to Grammar they only took from what would now be year 9 to sixth form.
I moved from a non grammar area to a grammar area over the school holidays and sat a test in the grammar on the first day of term and got a place.
I did not enjoy my time there and did not do anywhere near as well as I should.

I grew up in a non grammar area and went to an excellent 'comp' which truly catered to all children whether you were leaving school at 16 to work on the farm or staying on and applying to Oxford. This is my preference.
However we now live in a super selective grammar area and so we've done the 11+ three times over, twice successfully and once not. I can't deny that the grammar schools have given my children amazing opportunities that the comp did not offer the child who didn't get in but I wish all children had the same opportunity and experience.
Here it isn't possible to pass without tutoring as others have said - the paper is complicated and the maths covered is at y6 level. It also means that Y6 is a year of coasting as they've already covered a lot of the content.
The grammar schools are filled with children who attended private primaries or who had tutors (or like DH a parent who was skilled enough and had the time to put in). It is not a fair system.

The scoring is brutal - you are given a ranking for each school and the top 150 guaranteed a place. For the rest you have to gamble on how far down the list they will go to in your year and how many grammars you put on your school selection.
People travel for miles including out of county (my DDs best friend lives two counties down) as there is no catchment - you live and die by the rankings.
I am not in favour and would not choose a grammar system.

A lot of Londoners stay within London. It's very possible OP doesn't have full understanding.

May I also add a few things that I have learnt as an adult, even one that attended a 'public school' on a scholarship.

1. Someone talked about prep schools catering for kids up to 11. Traditionally, (private/public) prep schools taught kids up to the age of 13, when they took 'Common Entrance' to go to posh public schools such as Eton, Harrow etc etc. Nowadays, apparently, most kids leave prep at age 11, but there is still the common entrance at 13. I'm posting with some hesitation here as it's a very long time since I taught at one of the best prep schools in the country (which was also a choir school, and this fact doubtless influenced how many pupils went on until they were 13.)
2. Confusingly, the 11+ can also be referred to as Common Entrance. The two age graded exams are different, though.
3. I think there has been some (largely unacknowledged) focus in this thread about getting your child into a 'good' school. Don't forget (ha! I say forget, but am sure my parents never knew) that there may be other routes into selective schools apart from academic scholarships through music or sports scholarships. (There may be other scholarships too. My advice would be to Google the school you like and see what's out there.)

Think of it like this, 1,500 years ago schools were set up to teach latin. These schools were called grammar schools. These schools still exist today and are still called grammar schools. 80 years ago the government set up a new state school system and called some of those schools grammar schools, even though they didn't teach latin.

My school was a grammar school before the triwotsit system was even a twinkle in the government's eye.

As I have correctly said multiple times now, my school was an independent grammar school.

My late DP went to a technical school which had "voluntary aided" status.

It was an absolute exam factory. He came out with 12 O-levels and 4 A-levels, which was far more than anyone at my independent grammar ever even attempted (max was 9 for O-levels, and only the really geeky girls did 9).

They had a strong emphasis on what are now called STEM subjects, and some of his old school friends went on to do things like design fighter jets.

Your independent school may well have been entitled to use the word “grammar” in its name. But that does not detract from the fact that it is not a selective state school for children aged 11 and over. And schools which satisfy that definition are the ones which are collectively referred to as “ grammar schools” in any discussion about education in England. “Grammar School” is shorthand for “selective state”. Your school would not be in the mind of someone saying “I hope my child gets into the local grammar”. Your school would be described collectively as an independent or a private school.

You are being deliberately obtuse when you k ow exactly what type of school OP was asking about.