What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

I hadn’t realised the Latin connection to the definition of grammar until today. We did do Latin but not all the grammars around us did.

Ditto for the thickpiece twattery - jealous of those who have brains and want to make the best of themselves.

Lots of new houses being built but they’ve expanded school size again. I suspect eventually there will be less out of catchment.
The out of catchment children are taken in score order. They are often prepped from a very young age as their local options are poor.
In catchment there’s outstanding none selective options with great results so lots of parents don’t bother putting children in for it.

My DC go to a super selective grammar. passing doesn't guarantee a place, just the top 150 who pass and choose a place there - there are 5 grammars within reasonable distance (3 all girls, 2 mixed sex).

They both had a tutor from the start of Y5 and took the test at the start of Y6. Tutoring isn't all about intensive study but instead is:

• give them experience of how to take an exam (they went to a rural primary where they didn't do any real exams).
• Part of that is how to fill in a multiple choice paper (filling in the boxes)
• part is how to allocate time to each section and move on if they couldn't answer it
• the non-verbal reasoning paper is like. Foreign language if you've never seen it before so you need to understand the technique as to how to answer it
• the paper includes curriculum from Y6 work but exam is taken in the sept of Y6 so they need help with this

I do think it's unfair that parents who can afford a tutor or have parents who can help with the above (me and my DC would have clashed if I'd tried) are able to give their DC advantage. But it doesn't mean they then struggle with the work

I wish the primary schools would give all children the help as above but apparently they aren't allowed to 🤨. So it is no longer a leveller for bright kids who come from poorer or unsupported households.

My DC are thriving in an all girls school so I feel very lucky they have had this (privileged) opportunity.

I’m surprised you’ve never heard of them if you live in or around London. I’m 51, grew up in South East London, took the 11 plus. If you passed you could go to grammar school or like in our school there were 3 bands, those that passed the 11+ were in too band.

Very common in Northern Ireland, less so in England. None where we live nor in the area at all. I was surprised to discover they still existed in England when I started working in Education.

I had also never heard of them until MN. They are not a thing where I live.

Oh my lordy this thread is scary!! 😂

There are no grammar schools in my area anymore. They were changed to comprehensives in 1978 when I was due to take my 11 plus. I just remember my parents and teachers saying that the 11 plus and grammar schools were being abolished by the government. I actually assumed that this was a Country wide thing and not down to local councils. It was not until I was in my mid 20s and had an argument a discussion with a friend from up Country that I realised that the 11 plus and grammar schools still existed in other counties.

Yes I was agreeing with you

I attended a direct grant grammar school- in the dim and distant past! So it was a private school but the local authority paid for 20 places a year. That meant we had to sit the 11+. If we passed that, we sat the entrance exam. If we passed that, we sat the direct grant exam. If we passed that, we were interviewed by the Head. If we passed that, we got a free place! Some people dropped out at each stage, if you passed the entrance exam but not the grant exam you could still go to the school but only if you paid! Hundreds and hundreds of children initially applied, but were gradually whittled down!

My sons attended a more recent state grammar school, they passed the 11+ and scored enough to get a place.

I got a scholarship to an independent single sex grammar based on my 11+ results.

It didn't have the word grammar in its name though, it called itself (Name of town) High School. I chuckle now, as it's still called High School, even though every state secondary in the borough seems to be called Something High School.

In my area Labour turned all the Grammar Schools into comprehensives by amalgamation of some of them.. They believed in "equal opportunity for uniformity".

They're so that the middle classes and aspirant middle classes can enjoy the benefits of a selective education with someone else picking up the tab.

Large swathes of the country abolished them years ago, but they refuse to die.

I was brought up and live in Wales - we haven't had any grammar schools in the entire country for about 40 years - i.e. significantly longer than I've been alive, I still know what they are!
Fair enough you might not be entirely sure of the distinction and from MN you'd get the impression that there are far more of them/more of the population attend them than there really are, but I don't understand how you'd have never even heard of them particularly if you live fairly close to an area that DOES have them.
They are referred to fairly often in the news, in lots of books etc.

Years ago , every child sat a test at 10, just before you went to secondary school.
There was a Boys Grammar.
A Girls Grammar.
A Brand new Comprehensive.
The top 30 of each sex were offered a place at the Grammar.
It was free to attend, and most whom attended got better grades.

I would say OP, that as a parent, you have to be honest about your child's capability and 'fit' for attending grammar. There is usually a 10% drop out rate at my children's grammar, usually just before Christmas, by those students who were hothoused and tutored excessively to pass the exam by their parents. The child ends up struggling, unhappy and moves school. There needs to be natural drive and academic ability to thrive in the grammar environment for 5-7 years.

We had exams at the end of every acamdeic year. Less than 50% in any subject an conversations would be had about whether it was the right school for you.

Fair enough, no? Less than 50% in an exam suggests that something has gone very very wrong somewhere. Most grammar school kids are very self-motivated. Even if they'd had, say, a change of teacher or a supply for a number of weeks, they'd get onto the the self-studying (plenty of material out there) or seek out help from another teacher or even a friend in a different class. Getting less than 50% suggests that no effort has been put in, and that is not acceptable in a grammar school. They will, of course, look at extenuating circumstances but a consistent lack of effort for no good reason suggests that they are not mature or self-motivate enough for a very academic school.

They don't exist in Scotland. They go against our Socialist principles 😀

Our local grammar is very vocal on parents NOT tutoring theirs kids for the exam. It’s frowned upon because those ‘hothoused’ by their parents to get a place often struggle as the year progresses.

The local grammar also has a sixth form. No test. It just has entry requirements of so many gcses at B or above and some A level subjects wanted an A at Gcse to be allowed on the course. Higher entry requirements than the local colleges.
It’s very school like (uniform, form time, they ring your parents if you aren’t in) definitely wouldn’t suit some teens.

I was reading about the Finnish education system, less than 2% of students go to private school ( private schools aren't outlawed but legislation makes against the law to profit from basic education) All schools are comprehensive, teaching is very well paid and highly regarded profession. It's is widely considered one of the best education systems in the world. I imagine it really means the local state school will be good if the children of the CEO of Nokia and say the prime minister attend it! Sounds refreshing compared to Grammars, coaching 11 year olds and Public schools with ludicrous names that have produced our current crop of dreadful leaders and politicians.

I went to a grammar school in South West London, which is still there. However there have been changes over the years to the education system. It maintains high standards and back in the 60's managed to retain a sixth form. South West London is over the river from Chelsea, Clapham, Battersea - ie Clapham Junction is in Battersea and not Clapham - Wandsworth, Brixton, Earlsfield, Putney, Barnes etc. You've got commons such as Wandsworth and Clapham, parks ie Battersea and Richmond. My mother used to pay the rates at Battersea Town Hall now the Arts centre.

And there are some with grammar in the name that are state comprehensives!
My kids’ school was founded as Mytown Grammar in the 16th century,

Yes, DD's old school is MyTown Grammar School, but it is a rather good state comprehensive school. It was founded in the 14th century and has kept the same name for over 600 years. Locals still call it "the grammar school" to differentiate it from the primary schools in the area.

So there are three types of grammar school:

1. State grammar schools where the child has to pass the 11+ exam. These are very competitive to get into
2. Fee paying grammar schools. Children also have to pass an entrance exam. I have no idea how competitive they are to get into
3. Comprehensive schools that used to be grammar schools, but have kept the name

@CurlyhairedAssassin Oh agreed. I suppose I was trying to point out that grammar schools get good results as weaker pupils are pushed hard or pushed to find an alternative school.

I actualy have 2 GCSEs in maths as I got a C first time which my grammar school deemed unacceptable as they felt I was capable of getting a B or even an A. So as a condition being able to stay on to the 6th form I was forced to retake the GCSE in the first term of the 6th form.

That is the type of schools grammar schools are.