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Original poster

What the heck is a grammer school?

511 replies

BlackBarbies · 27/03/2023 15:29

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

OP posts:
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Villssev · 27/03/2023 18:30

Fladdermus · 27/03/2023 18:18

Think of it like this, 1,500 years ago schools were set up to teach latin. These schools were called grammar schools. These schools still exist today and are still called grammar schools. 80 years ago the government set up a new state school system and called some of those schools grammar schools, even though they didn't teach latin.

My school was a grammar school before the triwotsit system was even a twinkle in the government's eye.

As I have correctly said multiple times now, my school was an independent grammar school.

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Thank you! Better said than I’ve tried to explain!

Villssev · 27/03/2023 18:32

Sorry I wrongly misquoted

i agree with @NeverApologiseNeverExplain

Original poster
BlackBarbies · 27/03/2023 18:56

Thanks so much for all of the informative comments! I’ve learned quite a lot from the in depth comments so that’s super helpful.

I’ll be chucking my kids in a standard secondary school seeing as that’s what’s closest to us. There seems to be a mixed view of those that think they’ve benefited from going to a grammar school and others who are not too sure that it’s made a difference to their life. Very interesting indeed:)

OP posts:
SocksAndTheCity · 27/03/2023 18:56

YoungMotherHubbardsDog · 27/03/2023 17:20

Ditto for the thickpiece twattery - jealous of those who have brains and want to make the best of themselves.

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I must be a 'thickpiece' then, because I haven't got a clue what having brains or wanting to make the best of yourself has to do with going to X, Y or Z school. I have five GCSEs from my (then) local secondary and have done just fine, mostly by working really fucking hard.

Some of the stupidest and laziest people I've ever met have been those with expensive and elitist educations, and in some cases their misplaced entitlement has done nothing for them but stuff things up once they were let out into the real world. The idea that I would be 'jealous' of them is nothing short of bizarre.

Fladdermus · 27/03/2023 18:56

So many people just can't accept being shown to be wrong. I blame the education system.

DappledThings · 27/03/2023 18:58

Fladdermus · 27/03/2023 18:56

So many people just can't accept being shown to be wrong. I blame the education system.

You haven't proven anyone wrong. It is indeed correct that a lot of independent schools retain the word grammar in their name. Doesn't make them Grammar Schools.

Hobbitlover · 27/03/2023 19:01

We don't have them in Scotland🙈

NeverApologiseNeverExplain · 27/03/2023 19:02

Fladdermus · 27/03/2023 18:56

So many people just can't accept being shown to be wrong. I blame the education system.

@Villssev was agreeing with me, not you. She corrected herself. You have indeed demonstrated, however, that many people cannot accept being proved wrong…

CatkinToadflax · 27/03/2023 19:02

DS2’s school is private and teaches Latin. Sounds like I need to phone up and get them to change its name to Town Grammar School instead of just Town School. 🤦‍♀️

I went to a grammar school. It was and still is a state school. Absolutely baffled by the few posters still insisting that their private schools are grammars, as opposed to having historically been grammars and have retained the name whilst now being private schools.

NeverApologiseNeverExplain · 27/03/2023 19:03

CatkinToadflax · 27/03/2023 19:02

DS2’s school is private and teaches Latin. Sounds like I need to phone up and get them to change its name to Town Grammar School instead of just Town School. 🤦‍♀️

I went to a grammar school. It was and still is a state school. Absolutely baffled by the few posters still insisting that their private schools are grammars, as opposed to having historically been grammars and have retained the name whilst now being private schools.

I think they are trying some pseudo-clever technique that they learned in private school debating club- it’s all very Boris Johnson.

Highlandflingbling · 27/03/2023 19:08

Hbh17 · Today 15:31
How can you not know?!
Secondary school if child passes 11 plus.
And it's "grammar" school.

bore off! I’m from Scotland and I didn’t know either.

Frazzledmum12 · 27/03/2023 19:13

My son transferred from doing yrs 7-11 at the local comp (as he refused to do the 11+) to the local grammar to do his A Levels. If I had my way he would have stayed where he is. He did amazingly well in his GCSE's because the comp put so much work into each and every student. They used to call themselves 'a grammar school for all'. The amount of extra lessons etc put on to help them through their exams was first class. The grammar school did nothing. It feels a bit like well you are clever, get on with it. My son's old school did get a fair bit of media coverage with the previous head for being quite strict, but he did better in his exams than most of his friends that went to the grammar school. He only left his old school to be with his mates and because the grammar takes football quite seriously (his greatest passion)
Just to add that being a grammar doesn't always mean a better education

Boomboom22 · 27/03/2023 19:14

Just to confuse things even more, academisation means some grammars are academies as well as some comps. Plus free schools but they can't be grammars unless an extension but in a new town 🤣

Direct grant don't really exist now but academies are quite similar. The la is therefore not responsible For most schools although admissions are coordinated.

Some grammars have their own test that you can take if local instead of the 11+ or kent test. Eg shepway has a test so you can enter the Folkestone grammars through the kent test or the shepway test, but only for locals.

Also many comps have a grammar stream. Essentially top set that are taught a faster paced curriculum but in a comp.

HuggingtheHRT · 27/03/2023 19:19

The main point is that they select based on ability. Kids can opt to take an exam at 11 and the 'best' ones get skimmed off and given a place at a grammar.

Mumsnet raves about them. I think they perpetuate inequality for all the reasons mentioned by others - I.E rich families paying for tons of tuition to get their kids through the tests.

The two nearest grammars to me feel like quite toxic places. All the girls I know who've been there have come away with huge mental health/self harming issues. The boys grammar was flagged as having issues with bullying and safeguarding recently...

x2boys · 27/03/2023 19:37

Hbh17 · 27/03/2023 15:31

How can you not know?!
Secondary school if child passes 11 plus.
And it's "grammar" school.

Whilst do I do what a Grammar school is they haven't had them in my town or surrounding towns since the 1970,so it's quite easy for the majority of the UK not to know what they are 🙄

x2boys · 27/03/2023 19:42

CatkinToadflax · 27/03/2023 19:02

DS2’s school is private and teaches Latin. Sounds like I need to phone up and get them to change its name to Town Grammar School instead of just Town School. 🤦‍♀️

I went to a grammar school. It was and still is a state school. Absolutely baffled by the few posters still insisting that their private schools are grammars, as opposed to having historically been grammars and have retained the name whilst now being private schools.

The private school.next to my comprehensive school was called Town,s name Grammar school
state Grammar school,s were phased out in the 1970,s in my town and in most towns in the UK

Original poster
BlackBarbies · 27/03/2023 19:48

x2boys · 27/03/2023 19:37

Whilst do I do what a Grammar school is they haven't had them in my town or surrounding towns since the 1970,so it's quite easy for the majority of the UK not to know what they are 🙄

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Especially when my mum was born in 1977 and I was born in 1999😅

OP posts:
x2boys · 27/03/2023 20:02

BlackBarbies · 27/03/2023 19:48

Especially when my mum was born in 1977 and I was born in 1999😅

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Well.exactly and I only know about them because we did the tri partite,system in history 😂and I was born in 1973 and this was the late 80,s!

EpicChaos · 27/03/2023 20:29

Grammar schools were the greatest aid to social mobility for the poor working class, than anything else.
Once the middle class politicians realised that and some noisy middle class little darlings lost out, the ladder was pulled up and the doors firmly slammed shut.
No more local government jobs for the oiks, eh?!

@HurryShadow " Having said that though, there is the counter argument that if there weren't grammar schools, then the "clever" kids would be dispersed around the state comps and actually improve those schools. "

And the counter argument is a whole load of bollox, tbh. That was an excuse given at the time, iirc, however, what happened was, that it held back very bright kids, who were placed in classes where their needs were ignored in favour of extra effort being put into teaching the less academically able/ uninterested children, which resulted in bright kids failing to achieve their true potential.

x2boys · 27/03/2023 20:32

EpicChaos · 27/03/2023 20:29

Grammar schools were the greatest aid to social mobility for the poor working class, than anything else.
Once the middle class politicians realised that and some noisy middle class little darlings lost out, the ladder was pulled up and the doors firmly slammed shut.
No more local government jobs for the oiks, eh?!

@HurryShadow " Having said that though, there is the counter argument that if there weren't grammar schools, then the "clever" kids would be dispersed around the state comps and actually improve those schools. "

And the counter argument is a whole load of bollox, tbh. That was an excuse given at the time, iirc, however, what happened was, that it held back very bright kids, who were placed in classes where their needs were ignored in favour of extra effort being put into teaching the less academically able/ uninterested children, which resulted in bright kids failing to achieve their true potential.

What about the mediocre kids then or should we just ignore them?,Grammar education only ever favoured the very few.

EpicChaos · 27/03/2023 20:59

@x2boys Mediocre kids were serviced well enough in comprehensives, they didn't lose out by not going to a grammar but the bright kids very definitely did.

Impetusturn · 27/03/2023 21:15

My husband was a grammar school boy back in the 1960's in South Yorkshire. I have been pulling his leg about it for 46 years!

EffortlessDesmond · 27/03/2023 21:17

Very bright children are (generally) poorly educated in comprehensive schools IMVHO, especially in rural areas. They are held back to the class average, get bored to sobs, because the emphasis is all about getting the mediocre up to a grade 4 or 5. There's a huge emphasis on catering to low achievers, and much less on giving the genuinely clever kids the intellectual excitement they crave. I did my PGGE at 50 and loved teaching the top sets. So much fun, because they had ideas and opinions that would never ever occur to the rest. The assumption is that the very bright ones will find their way through the system, and TB fair with the help of their intelligent parents, they do. But the really clever kids, one or two per class in unstreamed years, would have flown in a more selective system.

EffortlessDesmond · 27/03/2023 21:26

@x2boys I think schooling impoverishes civil/civic society by choking off ability. If you would prefer good government, then in my opinion, you want the full range of opinion, from all classes and races and religions, from Eton to Edmonton.

ConsuelaHammock · 27/03/2023 21:28

We have grammar schools in NI ( with exception of a few areas). Whilst I don’t necessarily think it’s a good system, it’s preferable to state versus private. There’s only one truly private school in NI. Lots of the grammars ask for voluntary contributions to fees.