What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

Also OP, with London state schools, never assume your kids will get into the school (or several schools) nearest to you because very often, there is no such thing as 'just go to your local school.' London is too densely populated and, although the borough legally has to find a school place somewhere for your child, it could easily be in the opposite side of the borough and / or involve a convoluted journey passing many other (oversubscribed) schools en route. For the most popular schools (particularly primaries) catchment areas may be limited to one or two streets.

@Jarstastic , probably as late as Easter before the exams were being set. Teachers would have wanted to know who was as good as they thought, and who was blagging it, before sixth form. There would always be kids who were only just beginning to hit their stride at 15, and some who were turning away from education.

@LadyIckenham the grammar my children attend and also the one I work at (both Bucks) have very few students from independent schools - the vast majority are from Bucks primaries (plus the few 11+ tourists who move into the area).

Sport is good because Bucks has some excellent clubs (eg Marlow Hockey Club) where a great many children play from a very early age.

Thanks for starting this thread, OP - I knew what a grammar school was (only found out recently as I'm central London with very young children so no experience). This has been so helpful.

@KittyMcKitty Very different where we are but then it never ceases to amaze me how much people set their stalls out for a grammar at an early stage.

My grammar school did not offer CSEs so it was a case of do well enough at O level or fail. The secondary moderns I think did a mixture of a subjects available at O level but some just CSE. The school you went to age 11 affected which exams you could take at 16. Without O levels it was harder to access A levels and degree. Now with GCSEs it is much easier to move on to A level whichever school you were at.

At age 10, which is of course ridiculous. At secondary moderns they did CSEs -& at grammar schools they did O levels.

You're saying the schools with the worst results are full of thick kids.

The lowest attaining cohort in the English education system is working class white boys. Are you absolutely sure they're not academically inclined, or are schools failing them in some very important amd fundamental ways, or is their home environment giving them messages about working class white male identity that are working against school?

Bear in mind that the sisters of these working class white boys (and the RC white working class boys and their sisters in NI) tend to do better.

The concept of a stratification of intellect leads to meek acceptance of the class system and the power structure of the UK. It's something that obviously benefits those at the top.

The GCSEs taken may also be more prescriptive. At my children’s school everyone took triple science and had to take at least one language, 2 x English and Maths (and depending on your set Ad Maths / Further Maths) + 3 more subjects - so a min of 10. Everyone sat Higher Tier in Sciences, Maths and Languages.

They may have their eyes on the Ebacc and league tables. Interestingly some of the super selectives offer more flexibility, they don't care about league tables because children will come anyway. My child in a non grammar school had the fewest free choices for GCSE. Still expected to do ten as standard.

I think it highlights that there are substantial differences between grammar schools so it is hard to generalise.

@BlackBarbies Ebacc - English Baccalaurate not to be confused with the IB. The Ebacc is something dreamt up by government to encourage schools to ensure that children have a broad education to 16. It is based on GCSEs but is used for school level league tables. Some schools care about it more than others

The assumption that some kids are bright and some are not is one that leads you down a very dangerous path.

It couldn't possibly be that certain ethnic and racial groups and income levels / free school meals status are intellectual and certain ethnic and racial groups and income levels/ fsm determination are not.

When you look at the breakdown of GCSE results on a national level, it would be best not to jump to conclusions about natural levels of intellect. That way, you can avoid racial stereotyping.

😴

I don’t think that’s right, at least not across the board.
i had a slightly older friend who did O levels (I was at a grammar school in the second year of GCSEs and I believe prior to that it had been all O level at my school) at a comprehensive/secondary modern. I think she did all o levels or at least a majority so. She did A l vels still at the same school then went to Portsmouth Poly. But I don’t know when that was decided for her. I just don’t know when the decisions was made.

Actually don’t know why I didn’t ask him earlier but just did so. my DH went to a comprehensive in the last year of O levels, albeit in an area without grammar schools and he says they were streamed; Stream A, B, C. He was in A (and went onto a top tier university in the UK though he was in the minority even for his stream) but doesn’t remember when the streams came in. The streams were across all subjects.

(One of our DC is in a comprehensive and they are in sets in the core subjects and different ones eg top set for maths, middle set for English)

DS did food tech at grammar school. Only subject he liked and excelled at. Now training to be a chef. If weren’t for that subject he may not have realised he was good at it. Only good thing to come out of his time there.

cries

You didn't read my post then?

Northern Ireland is only part of UK where they still have grammar schools in every county. Children do an 11plus type exam, called transfer test, in order to get in. The academic standard in theses chools is very high but opinion is divided. It does mean that primary Children are under a lot of pressure and there is a big educational divide; excellent exam results from grammar pupils but a higher percentage who fail to get any qualifications from some secondary schools.

Just checked- there are 66 grammar schools in Northern Ireland.

Streaming within a comprehensive is slightly different because usually it is possible to move between bands if a child is achieving much higher or lower than they did at school entry. In a grammar area it involves moving school, making new friends etc.

It has to be acknowledged too that the 11 plus is a test of prejudice. It is culturally biased, as most IQ tests are. It is a snapshot of one day in the life of a 10 year old. It also is prejudiced against anyone with a SpLd.

It is a blunt tool and not able to specifically identify the top X% of the cohort, it is designed to ensure that the bottom Y% of the cohort do not enter. If the cut off is say 20% then the school doesn't mind if Jonny comes who had lots of tutoring (which his parents will continue to pay for at GCSE) and is 'naturally' in the top 24% instead of Max who is in the top 18% but his grandparent died a couple of months ago, he now has to help get his younger siblings ready for school every day and his mum doesn't have the money for tutoring. The grammar school just want to ensure that Sam who is average at 50% of the population doesn't come because they think he will struggle. Max's school could appeal but maybe the head of Max's school thinks that the grammar school won't suit him and he would be better going to the local school with all his mates. Maybe they are right, maybe not, we will never know.

All grammar counties don't tend to have any greater academic attainment than counties with a comprehenisve system. If you live in a grammar county for other reasons then it can be hard not to go along with the system.

That's an excellent summing up @Unexpecteddrivinginstructor

Well they don't do they?
in all mainstream school,s pupils sit GCSE,s ,but certainly from 16 plus not every one sits A levels ( despite what mumsnet thinks ) many schools don't have sixth forms for a start ,my sons school.doesn't ,in my town we have a sixth form college offering A levels and then another college offering a wide variety of courses at all different levels .

Im.around your age and went to.a comprehensive school,we had no Grammar schools,my sister who.is two years older than me was in the first cohort ,to sit GCSE,s in 1988,I think my school offered both O,levels and CSE,s prior to.the introduction of GCSE,s ,depending on what set/ stream you were.in we had had had three sets ,with set one being the most academic and set three, being the least ,I was slap.bang in the middle being in set two for everything.so maybe had I been a bit older I would have sat a mix of Olevels and CSE,s?

I did read your post! It just confused me so much that I needed to ask a simple question to try and understand it a bit more😅

My husband and I both went to grammar schools in Northern Ireland- a long time ago! He was a teacher and taught in a direct grant school in NI (that was a public school which also functioned as a local grammar for boys who passed 11+ and no longer exist). He then taught in a grammar school in Kent and a public school in South West of England. For those who don't know; not all private schools are public schools, only those on HMC register. Our children went to state primary and two of them went to my husband's independent school, our youngest to local, good comprehensive. Our conclusion- a good comprehensive is best option. Our eldest and youngest both did well academically, our middle one disliked the public school, defected to the comprehensive but dropped out before completing A'levels. State educated one got good A' levels, a first class degree, a PhD and is a university lecturer ,similar for our eldest. Grammar school system in NI is very unfair and divisive. I know one family with five children, four got into grammar, one failed transfer test which was devastating for him.

@BlackBarbies there are no GCSE subjects which are magically open to pupils at private or grammar schools but denied to those at a comprehensive or a secondary modern much though some parents might like there to be.

FWIW DD2 went to a secondary modern and did a fairly academic set of GCSEs – science x 3, english x 2, maths, further maths, stats, history, Spanish, ICT and PE (too many but that's another story). Her brother, who was at a grammar school, took an almost identical list.

What about the students who want to take a subject like food or technology a bit furher in life?
Another good question. DH has a goddaughter who did food tech at GCSE and loved it, did a degree in it, then a PhD. Since leaving academia she has worked abroad for an international food advisory body and is about to move to The Netherlands to work for a well-known brewery company. No idea what she earns, but I don't think anyone could say she hasn't had an interesting career thus far.

there are no GCSE subjects which are magically open to pupils at private or grammar schools but denied to those at a comprehensive or a secondary modern much though some parents might like there to be

I am sure that this varies between schools but our expeience is that there is less choice of MFL in secondary modern schools and less choice of technology subjects in grammar schools. With food security and obesity a growing concern, why should it not be a priority in all schools? For my dc so far this has not been an issue (hate food tech and MFL equally!), but dividing at 11 has reduced the choices available.