What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

@OhVicIveFallen Indeed - the OP asked a perfectly reasonable question.

Until I met Mr Monkey I had no idea about voluntary aided schools or assisted places schemes.

It would have been a grammar school, then when the Local Education Authority decided to cease two-tier secondary education, rather than become a comprehensive, they went private. Loads of private schools used to be grammars.

Only 75% of places fill (pass and catchment guarantees a place) 25% bus in from surrounding areas.

This just seems like madness - why not marginally expanding the admission criteria to allow more local children to attend 🤯 I know the single sex grammar I attended has since had to become mixed sex in order to fill places which just seems like a real loss for local girls.

Well if you don't live in a selective area and there wasn't selective education where you grew up, how would you know??
Plus many private schools call themselves 'grammars' so there is definitely cause for confusion. Absolutely no need for your comment

SW = Brixton, Streatham, Croydon. Also Wandsworth, Putney, Wimbledon, Balham, Tooting, Clapham, Battersea, Earslfield, Southfields etc

Different part of the country altogether! Though seems not uncommon based on the reply above.

They used to really prevent until the late 1960s and a way for working class kids to get a great education and the opportunity to progress in life.

The labour party in a desire to level out educational opportunities removed vast majority...it did level opportunity for the poorest...to the lowest level.

We don't have them either!

Usually when a school is fee paying with grammar in the name it's because it was once a non fee paying grammar.

Grammar schools have been around for centuries and were originally schools which specifically taught latin. Lots of people on this thread are using the more modern meaning within the state system and shouting down anyone suggesting private schools are grammar schools. The state system may have appropriated the name but a private school which teaches latin is, by definition, a grammar school. That's what the word means.

That depends entirely on your definition of "better education". Grammar schools tend to teach at a very past pace, will expect you to achieve top grades and put pressure on you to do so. Some pupil thrive on that kind of environment and love the competitive environment with likeminded peers. Those that can't keep up or who crumble under pressure will struggle and no doubt feel more of a failure than if they'd gone to a comprehensive and been able to go at pace they felt comfortable with. It's not really a "better education" for those poor kids.

Don't get me wrong, both my kids went to a grammar. My youngest still attends. But he certainly isn't in the top 10% of his cohort like he was at juniors, and on occasion that has knocked his confidence.

Haha I know, it’s slightly strange! There have been loads of comments giving really in depth explanations so I’m focusing more on those ones. I’ve also learnt how to spell grammar correctly so it’s not all bad😬

In our area the state grammar is the most academic option / its results are near top in league tables. So if you have an academic child aiming for top results then it’s usually the preferred choice.
The private schools tend to cater for the ok academically, results aren’t a patch on grammar - even if they have admission tests they aren’t as rigorous.
Parents do pay for private primary with a view to state grammar. The private primary’s focus on nailing basics - grammar, punctuation, maths that will help pass and in later years will usually do verbal reasoning, formal practice exams etc. Primary is half the price of secondary.

What? Are these real places? “Nonsuch”?? 😂

Glad you asked the question. They don't exist where I grew up and don't exist where I live.

In the London Borough I grew up in the whole class took the test in school time (in 1981) We also practised the tests in class so no need for parents to prepare you. I no longer live there but i gather that's changed now though.

Hey OP 👋

I’m guessing you’re relatively young compared to a lot of us 😬 if being from Brixton means you don’t know the other areas of London so well? I’m from East London but have moved all around North London, South London, Kent and other cities, I think it’s unusual to stay in one place well into adulthood, which may be why people are a bit surprised. It’s nice you are obviously happy where you are.

But yes I had no idea grammar schools existed until I moved to kent and I was like whaaaaaat I thought this was a 1970s thing.

Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread, but for what it’s worth…

Schools can be private, aka independent, or state. Some very old posh private schools are called ‘public’ schools because they come from an era when private tutoring was the norm for the rich. (But in American movies a ‘public school’ means it isn’t private, lol).

Private schools don’t have junior/ secondary, they are instead called Prep for age 7-11/13 and Senior for the older years.

Grammar schools are a kind of state school that was invented to give clever children who can’t afford private school a place where they could get a fast-paced ambitious education in a quiet hard-working environment. For a while, this worked. In the 1950s-1990s, if you were a bright kid in a grammar area, your state school teacher would quietly give you a bit of 11+ exam practice as extra classwork and if you were bright you’d get into grammar school. This genuinely enabled some children of low income working class families to get into universities/ high paid jobs they wouldn’t otherwise have had a chance at. Some of those children grew up to be Tory politicians and they think grammar schools are brilliant.

But, there were problems. It was divisive for families: if one child passes the exam and the other is less bright or just sick on exam day and fails, they go to different schools, are given different opportunities, and worst of all the jealousy and resentment forever poisoned a lot of sibling relationships.

Another problem was that, as private school costs got higher and higher compared to middle class incomes (fees being mostly driven by overseas students particularly from Russia and China being prepared to pay anything for a UK private education, and austerity etc holding down UK incomes), and grammar schools got more similar to some private schools, the UK middle class began to realise that it made more sense to spend ££££ on grammar school exam preparation and buy a house in a grammar area than it did to spend £1million on secondary school fees for 4 kids.

At the same time, the government banned state primary schools from helping children to prepare for the grammar school exam. 🤔 Not sure why.

So, currently grammar schools are for the children of families who can afford to buy a house at an inflated price to be in the right area AND can afford to pay for lots of private tuition and/or a prep school.

And children from state primary schools have very little chance of passing the grammar school exam unless their parents are prepared to spend a lot of money/time on tutoring and exam practice.

🤷‍♀️ Funny old world

And quite a few kids at grammar school have a horrible time because of the constant pressure.

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ Not sure what I think about it, I was a clever kid in a rough noisy comp and would have thrived at a grammar school but never mind.

We have a grammar school within 10 miles of us which both my kids attend. They went to a state primary. In year 5, when talk of secondary school options arose and having viewed the local comprehensives and the grammar, they had a preference for the grammar. I bought the CGP books from amazon and worked through them with them. They sat the exams and were offered a place.

You don't have to pay for a tutor. You don't have to be local. Kids travel 90 mins each way by travel to go to school. I feel you do need to be proactive as a parent - no one tells you about admission criteria, paper etc. You need to research it yourself. Primary assumed children would filter into the local comp and weren't much help.

Putney, Wimbledon, Earslfield and Southfields seem so far away!! But I do consider the other places to be SW London tbh!

Haha no just the names of the grammer schools in South London. Another thing that I’ve learned today

So do we! It's prefaced with the word "Old" though, to ensure that everyone knows it was founded in 1512 and make it sound posher.

.

Just spelt grammar wrong again, Jesus

Who said they did? You said "there isn't ONE definition of grammer schools that includes fee-paying" You didn't say IN England.

Turns out when you remember that other places exist, you realise other definitions exist! They are grammar schools, and they are fee paying.

Henry VIII had a palace there which was all fanciful and decorated, hence the name.

Great post! Thanks for the detailed breakdown