What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

I couldn’t tell you one private school in Brixton (if there are any). I can see that many people on here aren’t like me so clearly no one can relate to how I am.

There are schools EVERYWHERE. There’s primary schools and secondary schools on what feels like every other road/corner. If one if them were to be a grammar school or a private school. How would I know? Unless the school is in close proximity to my house and I literally pass it daily or know someone who goes there, how would I know what the school is?

Do people know everyone CoE school in their country? I certainly don’t. I only know of a few single sex schools in the area because I had friends who went to those schools. I really don’t know where the nearest private school is, because guess what, I’ve never needed too!

I understand that seems to be a foreign way to think to some people but that’s just the way I am. Now I have kids I’m becoming more interested in my surroundings and the education system. I’m terribly sorry that I didn’t spend my teenage years and early 20s being so engrossed in the education system. I didn’t even finish sixth form!!

Thanks very much for this really kind advice. Growing up, my family just put you in whichever school was closest to your house. They’d avoid the ones with the really bad reputation but that’s about it.

My 11 month old has an intellectual disability due to his genetic disorder and will probably need to go to a specialist school. My 22 month old has suspected ASD. I owe it to my kids to do better and not just put them in the closest school because that’s what I’m used too. I’m finally showing an interest and trying to broaden my knowledge so I can think about these things from now.

So why some people are trying to shoot me down for finally showing an interest, I’ll never know. What happened to ‘better late than never?!!’

@NeverApologiseNeverExplain haha thank you both! I do try. I can’t leave the meanies win😬

@CurlewKate I live in Bucks and pupil outcomes contradict this. To the degree that the grammars now reserve a number of places for disadvantaged children who have received a slightly lower mark than the qualifying mark.

It is also the reason that Bucks is full of private prep schools and very few private secondaries.

I went to grammar as did my siblings and best friends. My dc will go to grammar. In NI the grammar system is an integral part of the education system. There is at least 7 within a 5 mile radius of my house. Some 40% of children go, with many more applying but not getting a place. In my old grammar some 30% are currently eligible for fsm and they achieve the same as those that aren't eligible. NI students consistently outperform their counterparts in other parts of the uk. I'm in favour of grammars as it gives wc children (like I was) a chance at a top class education. Because there are so many grammars it's easier to get in and kids don't need the same score as they would in England for example. But they still outperform grammars and fee paying schools.

Sorry, @CurlewKate, that should have been for @BadNomad whose post you were quoting.

My dc will go to grammar.

have they been accepted yet?

@Villssev
Yes

I can see that many people on here aren’t like me so clearly no one can relate to how I am.

Oh yes we can. MN sees plenty just like you.

Some folk on here just love another excuse to look down on others.

It's even worse on the higher education boards @ssd . A minority of posters think it isn't even worth going to university if the university isn't a top ten university.

One poster even said that DD's degree wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

So why some people are trying to shoot me down for finally showing an interest,

Cut yourself some slack OP. You have babies not a 10/11 year old with a school preference form due in!!

Hi OP. As explained, grammar schools have been largely abolished these days. There are some local authorities that have kept the 11 plus system - ie. parts of Kent, Essex, Buckinghamshire, Lincolnshire and Wirral (?). In addition there are some other grammars dotted around - eg. in Devon and some parts of London. I think there are about 220 grammars across the entire U.K. (so not many in the scheme of things).

Don't be confused by schools that have become private, but just retained the name "grammar" - eg. Kingston Grammar. Also some comprehensives may have done the same.

Basically, "grammar" just means children have to pass an 11 plus exam to get in. But not all grammars are equally selective - eg, the ones in Lincolnshire may take up to 50% of local children, whereas somewhere like Tiffin in Kingston will only take about 5%. How selective a school is will be reflected in exam results.

If you are in Brixton, the nearest grammars would be those in the Borough of Sutton (Wilson's and another one, I think)? But I think you need to live in Sutton Borough to apply. Apart from this there is Tiffin Girls and Tiffin Boys in Kingston - these are so-called 'superselectives' with no catchment area. In North London there are a couple of other very selective grammars - The Latymer School ( not to be confused with Latymer Upper in Hammersmith which used to be a boys grammar, but is now a superselective co-ed independent day school) and Queen Elizabeth School. There may well be a couple more.

Grammars are not the only form of selective state schools. Have a Google about Brampton Manor in East London - a very selective state academy that gets more than any other school (including Eton etc) into Oxbridge every year. I think there is another similar school in that area as well.

Other schools are faith schools and have their own form of selection which may well involve some nonsense about which children were baptised as quickly as possible after birth; or who has shown up to help with church raffles etc.

Don't just 'chuck' your kids in any old school. London is not like other parts of the U.K. and people outside London don't always fully understand this. Some schools are rife with stabbings and all kinds of antisocial behaviour and this is why so many families make the decision to go private / move out / move to certain catchment areas. In London, many of the best schools in the U.K. are in proximity to some of the worst. The gulf is huge and reinforced by the fact that those who can will inevitably seek better / safer options for their kids. It's all very well people in the suburbs and country pontificating - how many children have been stabbed at their local schools?

Anyway, good luck.

Thank you @Weald56 and @NeverApologiseNeverExplain I didn't know that all grammar schools were state schools.

You are right @CurlewKate privilege does come into it. I was responding to mathanxiety's incorrect assumption that all children can apply themsleves to get a place at grammar school.

[Applause] for @BlackBarbies. It's really vanishingly rare to encounter an OP who is genuinely seeking information and inviting a range of opinions. I am sure that you will find your DC schools to suit their abilities and temperaments, and I hope that this thread will have helped you formulate what will make them the best choices.

Hear hear @EffortlessDesmond.
I was told I couldn't have children and when I finally had DD I had no idea about the school application process, and had no-one I could ask as I was new to the area and everyone else I knew had much older children.

I spend more time on the higher education threads now but, apart from a handful of superior posters who criticize your DC's choice of university (and they can be extremely snobby) most posters don't sneer at you for not knowing stuff.

Honestly😂

This was very informative, basically a conclusion of what many people have said.

Now, Brampton Manor is something that I’ve heard of!! Every year (since I left school in 2015), Brampton Manor post’s peoples A Level results on Twitter and will say what uni they’ll be going too. Every single year, there’s so many students going to Oxford, Cambridge etc. I always remember the name because so many black students get into Russel Group Unis which makes me so proud. So wait are you saying Brampton Manor is a grammar school? I just assumed it was a standard secondary?

Yep, my school had quite a few stabbings unfortunately. It differently makes sense to think of schools and consider relocating instead of just putting up with whatever’s near you

Because in lots of parts of the country they were abolished years ago thankfully.

Now this question is for those who have genuinely helped me and not those taking the piss or accusing me of a troll!

So for those that go to grammar schools, do they still do GCSE’s or do they complete a different type of exam at the end of year 11?

Writing this has just made me think, what about those that go to private school? For some reason I just assumed that those in private school sit different exams. I mean, you have a paid education and you sit the same exams as us commoners. Surely not?!

They sit GCSEs in exactly the same way (both in the grammar my children go to and the one I work in) - a grammar school is no different from any other state school.

some private schooos sit IGCSEs and some schools do other types of exams.

The only difference with exams you’ll get potentially in a grammar is that they will do traditional type subjects and just GCSE’s and A levels (as opposed to BTech’s).

Everyone does GCSEs. As grammar schools are state schools they follow the national curriculum. A few might do the odd iGCSE (international GCSE). Same for private schools, although more of the have tended to do iGCSEs.

Thank you! I really hope so too. Surely MN is about learning things that will make a difference to your kids lives and asking questions.

I ask a question and apparently I’m trying to start a debate and whatnot. I really have learned a lot

My understanding is as follows.

Firstly, you may not know it but there are different GCSEs and A levels. Different exam boards, but the results generally count for the same (especially at GCSE level. I can imagine that there might be some A levels in specific subjects which are preferred by some professors interviewing people for admission to specific universities.)

Most grammar schools and public schools use the same exams as everybody else.

There are some schools which I think are all private but I'm not 100% sure, which use the International Baccalaureate system instead. And I know that at some private schools pupils can choose to do IB instead of the more normal exams. And I have just discovered there is an IB Primary Years Programme for children aged 3 to 12, so I suppose those children would bypass any local 11+ exams. I think the choice to do IB is usually at A level, though, and IB is accepted by UCAS for university entrance.

I am not aware of any other 'special' exams taken in private schools except the Common Entrance at around 13 years of age, which I have already mentioned.

Sorry, your question actually asked about the end of y11. There is an IB Middle Years Programme for students aged 11 to 16.