What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

Ahh right I completely get what you mean. So a grammar school and a typical secondary are exactly the same it’s just that the kids will have to sit an 11+ exam in year 6 to be able to get in to a grammar school. They also rarely do BTEC subjects during the sixth form years. That makes complete sense.

@Nonameoclue thanks for your comment too. I’ve never heard of iGCSEs before so that’s another new thing that I’ve learned. Yep the national curriculum. I definitely should have known that the whole country has to follow that🫣

Everyone in every type of school sits gcse and a levels. Some schools for special needs might not. Some schools offer more but yes it's all the same qualifications

Some grammar schools push through the curriculum faster, especially in maths and some might take GCSEs a year early. There might be a broader curriculum, so maybe three MFL (modern foreign languages) rather than one or two. I think the rationale is that because they are all quite intelligent they can learn things faster. There may be less emphasis on technology subjects - food tech, textiles etc.

It can affect well being if towards the bottom of the class and there can be competition between the students. Teaching also moves quickly so if you don't understand something then it is easy to be left behind. Most students would be entered for higher level GCSE papers, where there is an option. Some children though thrive in the setting.

Some state schools offer the IB for sixth form. It is a broader sixth form curriculum than the standard 3 A levels.

I think it is really good that you are asking these questions @BlackBarbies shows you are still questionning and will seek out the education which will suit you babies when the time comes. Life would be boring if we didn't keep learning.

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor i would disagree with your comment saying grammars offer a broader curriculum. Yes they may offer more languages etc but essentially the curriculum is probably narrower and focussed on more traditional subjects.

There is also a move away from taking subjects early with most schools taking all GCSEs in year 11.

The GCSEs taken may also be more prescriptive. At my children’s school everyone took triple science and had to take at least one language, 2 x English and Maths (and depending on your set Ad Maths / Further Maths) + 3 more subjects - so a min of 10. Everyone sat Higher Tier in Sciences, Maths and Languages.

Quite a few state schools / colleges offer the IB, I’m in Kent and locally I know if one grammar and one comp who offer it instead of A levels.

Also OP, while most grammars here are single sex for year 7 entry, they are mixed for 6th form/year 12 entry. There’s often a lot of movement between GCSE and A level, and many children who didn’t go to grammar schools at aged 11, moved to one at 16 to do their A levels.

Ah I see. What about the students who want to take a subject like food or technology a bit furher in life? The focus may be more centred towards traditional subjects?

Studying three languages😅 that sounds crazy! I struggled to even pass French

@Unexpecteddrivinginstructor @LimeCheesecake so an IB is an alternative to A Levels? I’ve never heard of IB before

Yes I should be clearer a broader range of 'academic' subjects but in less time so maybe six language lessons a fortnight across three languages, whereas the non grammars I know offer two MFL over six lessons.

It can be hard to do some subjects even at GCSE so whereas art, music and drama might be offered, food tech, textiles, PE GCSEs might not be offered at all. This may also be due in part to the sizes of the schools. There has been more restrictions on the expansion of grammar schools, so the year groups may be half the size of other secondary schools.

What about the students who want to take a subject like food or technology a bit furher in life?

Yeah that is the problem with opting for an academic route so early. Some leave at yr8/9 for schools where that is encouraged more. And yes three languages can be a stretch, especially when trying to learn in fewer lessons than their peers down the road.

The stupid google comments are so annoying. Imagine snarking at someone about not knowing what grammar schools are yet clearly having no idea about how a discussion forum works.

@BlackBarbies IB is not widely used in your average state secondary school in the uk although a couple do offer it. PYP is equivalent to uk primary curriculum, MYP is equivalent to uk secondary curriculum and DP is equivalent to uk A Levels. I use the term equivalent loosely because they are very different curriculums! Commonly used in private international schools that don't offer the host country's local curriculum.

@BlackBarbies sorry just realised I used a bunch of acronyms which mean nothing if you've never heard of them!

IB= International Baccalaureate
PYP=Primary Years Programme
MYP= Middle Years Programme
DP= Diploma Programme

PYP, MYP and DP are the different phases of the International Baccalaureate

The International Baccalaureate ibo.org is a broader, but still very academic alternative to A levels. Not offered at any of my dc's schools, so I am not an expert. There are options, but generally they continue with at least maths and English plus often a language, science and other subjects, some they do in more depth plus there is a community service aspect I believe. Would maybe suit an academic all rounder.

Another aspect is that many grammar schools are single sex at least to 16. Often with mixed sixth forms when there might also be movement between schools.

OP if either of your children is doing well academically by Y3 it is worth looking at grammar schools in Sutton borough and Kent. If you start early with extra help they have a chance of getting in. I know a child from south east London who got into a Kent grammar.
I believe there are 2 tests for Kent depending on part of Kent. This child didn’t have tutoring but did have a lot of practice with a parent using books. Non Verbal Reasoning particularly needs practice. There is also an online platform called Atom Learning.

From your user name and your recent posts I’ve gathered you are black. I mentioned in an earlier post I was on a train north through Kent recently, the amount of children who got on after school at Tunbridge Wells and Tonbridge who got off at London Bridge (presumably to change trains) and a lot of them were black.

Everyone should take GCSEs but perhaps in comprehensives and secondary moderns more take the foundation level. This is a paper where the maximum grade is 5. I don’t know when these came in. When I was taking GCSEs everyone did the same paper. this higher and foundation papers seems more similar to the O level and CSE system and at that point if you did the latter university maybe even A levels weren’t the track they were on.

You can also go across education areas (counties or boroughs depending on where people live) and can go into a grammar school at sixth form. People who couldn’t get in at 11 may get in at this point.

Some private schools are selective some aren’t. Part of what you are paying for is small classes, a longer school day and peers who are encouraged at home.

Everyone should take GCSEs but perhaps in comprehensives and secondary moderns more take the foundation level. This is a paper where the maximum grade is 5.

And this decision might not be firmly made until March of yr11. Whereas in the old system of CSE and O levels that decision might be effectively made at age 11 with grammars offering only O levels.

Yep the IB/ international baccalaureate is an international alternative to A levels, usually 3 at higher level (same as A level) and another group of subjects studied at a lower level, but not sure how many lower. It’s studied in many other countries so helps that it’s easily convertible to local qualifications by employers /unis wanting to compare, if that makes sense.

The IB itself is not an alternative to A Levels, the Diploma Programme if the IB is.

Yes. They sit the same exams as the commoners. A levels, o levels and baccalaureate.

I think the key thing is that no two state schools are the same irrespective of whether they are grammar, upper (previously secondary modern) or comprehensive.

as I’ve said previously I live / work in Bucks which is 100% selective so no comprehensive schools.

The grammars are a mix of mixed sex and single sex (my children attend mixed sex) and the Upper schools are mixed sex.

Some observations on the schools in Bucks. The grammars in general offer a far superior music provision - at my children’s school music is a v popular gcse and also popular A levels. There are many choirs / orchestras/ ensembles. The local upper school (a very good school) does not offer the same level of opportunities - there are many arguments as to why this may be - upper schools having a broader range of abilities and grammars being full of middle class kids whose parents can affford to pay for music lessons etc being the most common.

Sport in the grammars in Bucks is also at a higher level then in some (not all) Uppers in the county - again this may be down to the relative affluence of the parents and children being members of outside sports clubs from a young age.

My childrens school also offers dance (and drama) to A level and has many students at a high level who go into specialist education post A level (the same with music and conservatoires).

The downside is my children did not have the opportunity to do things like food tech / textiles / media etc or DT beyond GCSE.

My sisters kid just got into all the ones you mentioned, so she’s just joined the WhatsApp groups for parents, and she’s really gobsmacked at the parents coming from private schools. They are obsessed. I don’t see how they have saved money if they have paid for six years of private schools already. Also the school with the highest number of acceptances was a state school. But yea there’s a lot of talk about tutors and clubs and music and all the bells and whistles that they feel they have to provide in order for their kid to get in and maintain being in one.

Depends on the kid. This one gets through a powerful amount of work. But I wouldn’t call her particularly street smart and she might get gobbled up in a school that isn’t academic enough. That would have been awful for my boys though, they wouldn’t have stood the pressure.

I think the key is not to buy into a sunk cost fallacy and if you get a place try and keep it at all costs if it’s not working for your kid. I hope they let them transfer to state if they have to

All schools do GCSEs OP. Depending on the school / student ability they may take anything between 8 and 11 GCSEs as standard. The only variation is that there are different exam boards eg. AQA, Edexcel, Eduqas and schools can choose the board for each subject in the school depending on the curriculum that they prefer. But all GCSEs are marked between grades 9-1, with 4 considered a 'pass' (equivalent to the old 'C' grade). 7 is an A, 8 is an A star and 9 is a high A star.

At 16-18 it is either A-levels, or the IB (International Baccalaureate - but it's only really international schools and some independent schools that offer this). Otherwise, there are other courses like T-levels, BTECs etc.

Brampton Manor is not a grammar (I don't think so anyway). I think it's what is called an Academy. The thing is, it's a very large, selective school and they only take students who are academically able in the first place (there is an entrance exam). My DC is at Cambridge and has met loads from Brampton who report that they get identified for the Oxbridge track pre-GCSE and then EVERYTHING is geared to this. Apparently they go in at 6am sometimes for extra classes - this kind of thing- and it's very much a hothouse, in this respect. The school has links with certain Oxbridge colleges and will pull certain strings. Students are 'advised' what subjects to apply for; what colleges may be more promising for them, etc. Also, although the school will get about 60 into Oxbridge which is astonishing on the face of it, this is actually 'only' about 10-20% of a very large year group and, in this respect, is a similar (perhaps lower) success ratio than the top independent 'super-selective' schools like Westminster or St Paul's School etc.

There are other Academy schools too (though perhaps none so academic as BM). They are state funded but have freedom to set their own selection criteria (eg, they are not always required to only accept from a specified catchment). The London Free School in Hammersmith is an example - it was set up by some guy who had a vision for a state school that taught more traditional subjects like Latin and Greek.

@BlackBarbies you may find this - HOCL Grammar Schools in England, published a couple of weeks ago, of interest, though I'd recommend skipping through the more tedious bits.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07070/

However it reinforces some of the excellent points made on this thread, and debunks most of the more ill-informed ones.

However your thread title might have better started with "why" rather than "what"

The first Blair government introduced the School Standards and Frameworks Act, sections 104 to 109 of which

make provision for parental ballots to determine whether particular grammar schools or groups of grammar schools should retain their selective admission arrangements. A ballot can only be held if at least 20% of eligible parents have signed a petition requesting a ballot.

There has been one ballot - way back in the early 2000s - in Ripon, which failed.

Grammar opponents would argue that the ballot system set out by the Act is highly flawed. An argument that is not without basis. However a removal method does exist.

The wider public seem a bit "meh" about it all, The report linked above references a YouGov survey from last September.

• 26% of respondents held a ‘positive view’ about grammar school selection,
• 23% of people held a ‘negative view,
• 23% wanted to maintain the status quo,66 and
• 28% were not sure.

The age group most likely to hold a ‘positive view’ were those aged over 65 (39% reported this view in September 2022 compared with just 14% of 18-24 year olds).

Broken down by location, people living in the South of England (excluding London) were the most likely to hold a ‘positive view’ (33% reported this view in September 2022 compared with just 16% of people in Scotland).

When would the decision have been made for pupils at secondary moderns and comprehensives under the O level/CSE system?

My experience of Bucks is that sports is good in grammars due to all the children coming from prep schools where they have greater provision than state primaries. This is also reflected in local rugby clubs.

There are many children who do sports in out of school clubs but this is also the case at our local upper.

I have one, soon to be two, at grammars. The one currently there feels very strongly that they should be abolished in light of the attitudes of certain of her classmates....