What the heck is a grammer school?

[BlackBarbies]

Posting here for traffic!

Born and raised in South West London and still live here now. I’ve never heard of a grammar school until joining MN a couple of years ago.

Is it a primary school, is it a secondary school? Is it private or public? If it’s public, then why is it called a grammer school? Is it only available for certain types of children or something? I literally have no clue what a grammer school is so I’m happy to be enlightened!

Also, are there any in SW London? I’m genuinely intrigued as to how I’ve never come across one before

Failing to educate clever DC well is squandering talent. Look at the post-war politicians who came up through the grammar schools. Almost every Cabinet member, Tory and Labour alike, came through the 11+ and on to Oxbridge.

Some private schools are Grammar in name, a legacy of abolition of 11+ in 1970s which then went independent to keep selective . Keir Starmer went to one such.

Selective education by ability works and benefits everyone. Not everyone is really totally equal, or we would all be drones. Treated and tested equally is the sorting hat. Some people love to puzzle out how to design benefits as fairly as possible, and some would know where to begin.

..some wouldn't know...

Yes, I was going to say this - we were taught about grammar schools in history too! The teacher had a very negative view of them, and I’m pretty sure she never told us that they still existed in some areas.

Sadly, we had moved from a grammar school area before I was secondary age and I had to go to the local comp, which I hated. It might be better for the schools to have the clever kids in them, but you got picked on at my school if you were brainy. I would have loved to go to a grammar

I don't even know where to begin with this, quite frankly, offensive and ill informed post.

Our local state comprehensive in the nearest market town, with students travelling in from surrounding villages, performs well above average compared to other state comprehensive schools in England. 75% of the "not very bright" students achieved a grade 5 or higher in English and maths GCSE in 2022, and 55% of all A level grades were A/A* The school achieved an ALPS score of 2 in 2022 (ALPS scores are graded 1 - 9, 1 being the best and 9 being the lowest grade).

They set the children from year 7 in English and maths so that they don't put the bright children with the academically challenged.

Any decent comprehensive school will set for English and maths.

Grammar schools took roughly 20% of the population and gave a very academic education to millions of working class children like me who would otherwise not be able to afford it. In my GS in the 1960s the vast majority were from working class backgrounds, in my own year I think there was a doctor's daughter and the son of an optician. Generally we went into jobs like teaching, medicine.
The 'medicocre' children went to Secondary Modern schools where they studied less of the very academic stuff that many complain about today, eg Algebra and those 'mediocre' children went into jobs in shops, offices, workshops. If they got good CSE results they could go to the GS for A levels.
The problem was that the GS's were too successful for the left who thought everyone should be taught the same, irrespective of their ability. The idea that spreading the clever children round to improve the rest was a joke, it could only go one way. It took years and years to debunk the nonsense of 'mixed ability' and now most schools stream/set for at least the core subjects.

Your experience and mine differ @RampantIvy . In the school where I did my PGCE (at 52, so old) 12 form entry per year, there was no streaming at all until Y10, at which point there were two top tier classes, X and Y. X and Y were the clever ones. Most achieved 10 A * GCSEs and went to RG universities.

The school you are describing is not in a rural backwater @RampantIvy . Do you know what they are like for employment opportunity? You leave to get one locally. If yout get a public sector job, you are the elite.

It is pretty rural. Job opportunities round here aren't great, especially if you don't drive.

Actually the evidence shows that setting is bad even in maths. Only the brightest gain from setting. But I was 2nd set maths in a grammar and at gcse still bored. We did 12 and finished maths in yr10 so did stats too. It's tough, the most important thing is parents caring about education. It's not ability mixing that's the main problem but attitude to learning.
I still think setting is a good idea by yr9 or so though.

Actually the evidence shows that setting is bad even in maths.

I don't understand how not setting would work. All the children would work at a different pace so there would be a lot of bored pupils if they have to wait for the others to catch up.

Google is free

Highly differentiated teaching maybe. Prof Jo Foaler is the maths expert on setting. But diff is going out of fashion again so who knows!

This issue is @EpicChaos and @EffortlessDesmond that who's to say the brightest DCs at 10 will be the brightest at 16 or 18, or 21?

10 is much, much too young to make the decision as to who are the 'brightest', especially when it is judged by a non-curriculum based test taken on a random day at the start of Y6. It would actually be quite difficult to come up with a more crap system than that one if you tried.

Real grammar schools are state schools and do not charge a single penny in fees. They do have exam regulated entry so only the best test takers can gain admission.

I went to a grammar school and it was the most toxic environment I've ever been in. Getting told we were mentally deficient and a drain on society if we dared get a fail grade that was a B! I will never send my children to a grammar school if I have them.

My life experience has mostly been in Ireland and the US, and my Irish-UK relatives' and friends' life experience was entirely in Ireland until they moved to the London area and figured out how the system worked. When I moved to the US, I figured out the education system and organised my life to maximize my children's chances of attending great schools, then figured out how they could get into great universities.

There are hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world who end up in the UK and make it a priority to figure out how the education system can be used to best benefit their children. Many of these people don't even speak English as their first language.

It boggles the mind that people who are born and bred in the UK don't understand how the education system gives some kids a chance and keeps it from others. Doing your homework when it comes to the grammars and public schools and the best independents is how you give your children an opportunity.

You learn how to navigate the benefits system pretty darn quick if you need it, and the same goes for public transport - it really doesn't take that long to figure out busses and trains and routes and tickets. People from all over the world visit London and New York and Tokyo and Rome every year and manage to get around these cities on public transport. There are maps. There is information on fares. Why would you figure out private health insurance unless it struck you as something you needed? But if you did need it, you'd figure it out. It's not rocket science. Other people manage to do it.

If you have children in the UK, knowing how the education system works and understanding its role in maintaining or disrupting the social hierarchy is vital. You're missing a huge part of your understanding of British life, and you're sending your children off into life without a road map if you don't understand the education system.

That's my point - there is indeed a limited number of grammars, ditto public schools, and top independent schools.

So you end up with an elite. The elite is composed of people who have been told from an early age that they deserve more than the rest when it comes to opportunity and the good things in life. They also believe they deserve to lead, because they're smarter than the rest. Self-fulfilling prophecies are the strong point of the English and Welsh system. The system exists to reinforce the existing hierarchy.

You don't need to know anything about individual schools in order to understand the overall system, what its role is in the wider society, how it operates, and the effect it has on the winners and the losers alike.

Have you never stopped to ask yourself how many alumni of prep schools and schools like Eton have been Prime Minister or held ministerial posts over the last 250 years? Have you ever asked what this says about British society and its education system?

Doing your homework when it comes to the grammars and public schools and the best independents is how you give your children an opportunity.

My kids are 11 months old and 22 months old. Why on earth do you think I’d be ‘doing my homework’ on secondary schools when they’re not even in nursery yet? Please be serious.

Have you never stopped to ask yourself how many alumni of prep schools and schools like Eton have been Prime Minister or held ministerial posts over the last 250 years? Have you ever asked what this says about British society and its education system?

No. Considering that I didn’t even know what a prep school was until this thread, I can’t say that I’ve ever stopped to ask myself these questions. Why on earth would I sit down and think about Eton and over private schools? I genuinely have no interest in these things at all. Sorry but I can’t even take your responses seriously, you and I are from different worlds mate

@mathanxiety ^

My DCs never experienced setting in their US elementary school. It's perfectly possible to differentiate successfully. They were placed in different math tracks in high school, at age 14.

Grammar schools are really only found in the bigger towns like London and Birmingham. My cousin went to Latymer.

Some grammars are selective and some are super selective. To get in, a child needs to be tutored no matter how bright they are, really. Because primary schools don't teach things like verbal reasoning.

Anything else you’d like us to Google for you?

Getting told we were mentally deficient and a drain on society if we dared get a fail grade that was a B! I will never send my children to a grammar school if I have them.

I've seen this first hand in one of my relatives who is sitting GCSEs. She studies constantly and feels bad if she's not studying.