To think DS would be better off getting a job rather than going to uni

[Goinganon321]

My son wants to go to uni but has no idea what to study. 75% of his cohort (non-selective state school) usually apply and go and he says it’s the norm.

He is taking English, Spanish and Sociology for A level (so no STEM) and will probably be predicted BBB. He does the bare minimum for his A-levels (no super-curricular stuff at all) so I question why he wants to go to uni.

AIBU to say he should take a year out, work and think about it? He says I am because working shifts in Maccy D’s for a year won’t change a thing and most of his friends don’t have a clue what they want to do for a career so are just choosing a degree related to their ‘best subject’ at A-level. Difference is that most of them are doing at least one STEM subject! DS doing a degree in humanities or Spanish not so useful in this day and age.

On the other hand, having him resentfully living here and working shifts for a year while all his (equally undecided) friends are at uni isn’t exactly an attractive prospect either…. Help!

*Covid and the internet has completely changed Uni life. It can now be a pretty miserable place unless you're 100% focussed on your chosen subject or are in to the heavy partying social side of things.

My son went in 2020 and really suffered with covid as literally nothing was done face to face for the entire 20/21 academic year*

Are you aware they've gone back to face to face teaching now?

Why would you have to be either 100% focussed on work, or on the social side?

Is a balance of both impossible?

How many lecture hours and how much f-2-f v online is an important question. For open days for those currently applying, it would be one of my questions! I too feel sorry for those who Uni was badly affected by covid. I wouldn't want to pay £9k for online course. But some prefer on line. You can do open uni course at home for less. Fortunately ds1 is having a blast at Uni.

If he is good at languages, would he be interested in translation work in the future? Certainly nothing wrong with studying languages at Uni.

McDonalds are very good at spotting talent. If you are smart and want to get on in a year you could learn a lot about businesses, employees, customers and business management. IF you are interested, watch what is going on and get involved. So much more than just "burger flipping" as some people make out.

This sort of job, and talking to the people in it might help focus his mind on exactly what it is he wants to do - or maybe tell him what he doesn't.

IMHO, the ultimate choice is up to him (he’s an adult now) but it makes sense to have a family chat and weigh up all the choices available to him. I know you don’t particularly see the benefits of uni right now, but try to stay neutral on it and let him come to his own conclusion. I know that, if he were my son, my thinking would be as set out below.

Reasonable choices:

• Uni. Even if he doesn’t know what he wants to do long-term, at least he’s shown an interest in going and he’d be working towards a qualification and having some fun experiences while he’s there. He could do an English and Spanish degree perhaps. It doesn’t really matter that he doesn’t know what he wants to do afterwards as he still has time to do that while he studies and he could do a post-grad if needed. He can also work in part time jobs in the (long) holidays or the weekends to help with some of the costs.
• If you both agree that uni isn’t feasible right now, then a gap year abroad but persuade him to use it to expand current skills or gain new skills or experiences. For example, he could work the ski season in a French resort and learn both skiing and French, then TEFL in the summer in Spain to perfect his Spanish. He’d have a brilliant year and could then, in 2024, head to Uni to do a combined French and Spanish course or similar if he still wants to.
• A similar option but, instead of abroad, apply for work experience or internships closer to home in an area in which he may be interested for a career. For example: law, teaching, etc. The aim is that he ends the year with a better CV/prospects than when he started.

Poor choices:

• A year in a relatively menial job with mediocre long term prospects, eg, McDonald’s. Ending up in a branch management role is not guaranteed, plus the service industry does not necessarily offer him great long-term career satisfaction if it’s not something he’s ‘chosen’ to do.
• A year dossing about at home while he thinks about what he wants to do. If he’s generally unmotivated and uninspired currently, then the reality of unstructured time is likely to involve lots of going out, playing video games, etc. This seems like a waste of a year ‘treading water’.

Whatever he decides, please do support him as best you can in whatever ways you can, as it’s a hard stage of life.

To the people suggesting working the ski season etc? Is this still possible for British kids?

Covid and the internet has completely changed Uni life. It can now be a pretty miserable place unless you're 100% focussed on your chosen subject or are in to the heavy partying social side of things.

It changed university life for a short period of time.

@RampantIvy full of random assumptions there!

They havn't all gone back to F2F though. As I said in my post, at my son's, there is still a lot of online only happening on his course, including a couple of recent modules that were wholly online.

The 20/21 crap year "set the scene" for that cohort. He tried to put it behind him and "reset" for the 21/22 year, but a lot of the socials/freshers week etc were aimed at freshers, so for many, he didn't even know they were happening. His flat mates from his first year said the same. They're pretty much a "forgotten" year at his Uni.

I'm sure the 22/23 intake are having a more normal Uni experience, but that's no consolation to those in the two earlier years who had a crap 1 or 2 years, and even now, again as I said in my post, there are fewer clubs & societies even now because they died during the covid years and there are no older students running them.

The heavy social/partying students aren't as badly affected as they, by and large, ignored the covid restrictions anyway and partied, but the vast majority who aren't the heavy partiers really suffered and there's no getting back those wasted years of "normal" uni life.

Many jobs just require someone to be degree educated with specifying what degree is necessary. If a job specifies a certain degree needed for the job, some degrees can be converted. If he is unsure of what he wants to do in his future, getting a degree will open many more doors for him than not having one. Non-STEM degrees are also valuable in the workplace and don't underestimate the "uni experience", it can be fantastic way for a teenager to get their first taste of the "real world" and often, opportunities and interests in certain subjects and areas stem from the networking that comes from University.

Also remember that if you do persuade him not to go to University, despite him wanting to go, he might hold this against you in the future if he is being turned away from jobs he would loved to have worked in as he doesn't have a degree. It's not certain this will be the case of course, but it's a scenario worth considering.

Jesus, I'd be delighted he isn't narrowing himself down yet - he will find his place - more likely to find inspiration at uni than in McDonalds.

There is absolutely nothing by wrong with studying Arts based subjects such as Sociology and plenty careers are springboarded from here. I find it odd personally that anyone at 16 or 18 or whatever is supposed to know what they want to do for the best few decades. Far safer/better/more exciting and rewarding to get a degree than get some experience in a fast food chain.

Ah, that’s a good question @Hongkongsuey ! I had initially assumed it was still an option (as there seems still to be plenty of young Brits working in French ski resorts ) but I admit I didn’t factor in Brexit. It has probably scuppered things a bit.

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to TBH.

I think a lot of posters have misread the OP. She isn't saying he shouldn't go to university ever, but he shouldn't go to university yet.

A lot of jobs ask for degree level educated (when IMO it isn't necessary for many positions), and many degrees provide transferrable skills, so the question isn't what he should study, but what would interest him enough to motivate him to do well.

And @Goinganon321 is saying that nothing is just now, so I agree that just going to university for the experience (and probably being supported by parents) and not doing any work is a good enough reason not to go.

Going to university for the experience, making new friends, partying, learning to live independently and working hard to gain a good degree is a good reason to go.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to go to Uni for the experience IMO.

He can have fun, meet new friends, learn skills and get a degree out of it.

He can also get a part time job. It could be the making of him.

I come from a very poor background so encouring someone NOT to further their education doesn't seem right to me personally.

Has he thought about apprenticeships etc?

I come from a very poor background so encouring someone NOT to further their education doesn't seem right to me personally.

The OP is encouraging him not tp go yet, not stopping him from going ever.

Those who are degree educated - regardless of what degree they have, or what job they choose, earn more on average than those without a degree.

Well, this is true if you compare them to people working in KFC etc (not meant nastily).

However, somebody who is interested in making a reasonably decent salary will most likely do something like learn a trade if they don't go to uni, and average trade salaries are higher than average graduate salaries and average office worker salaries - e.g. average graduate salary is £35k against the average trade salary of £45k.

Also, most students will graduate in their early 20s with loads of debt and then get a £25k job. A young tradesperson will have several years experience by this point and possibly be earning £20k more, might be well on the way to getting on the property ladder.

Where I'm contracting atm the PAYE truck drivers are on £200 a day and the owner/operator ones are making loads - some take home £5k a month after tax.

Of course the lad in question may not be very keen on trade/site work but it's worth knowing the options. There's guys in their early/mid 20s making over £50k where I work and they're not even the sharpest tools in the box for the most part. I feel like most middle class professionals are pretty blind to this realm.

Mc Donald’s is a fantastic employer so don’t dismiss the opportunities that might give him.
there is the open university if he wants to study later on in life,
personally I think going to uni for the lifestyle is a poor life choice, he could always get a residential job in any number of hospitality venues where he’d be living with young people, earning money and not getting into 70k of debt.

I completely agree with you OP. I am your son in the future- did it for the experience, couldn't be arsed whilst there and should have left. I got talked into seeing it through and ended up with a rather pointless 2:2 in a subject I wasn't largely interested in and alot of debt. 15 years on and I've been declined for various funded level 3 courses I have been enthused about and have been finally mature enough to try at and would have led to better employment prospects because I "already have a level 3 qualification" and bitterly regret the whole experience. See if you can interest him in things like working ski seasons or camp america- same sort of experience and he won't end up paying for it- he'll get paid but as they also house and feed you it's not enough for him to get used to the money.

MN is biased. Considering most women did a non-STEM degree and most did not go into a trade. They can't see the benefits of the other side.

Ask on a male dominated forum.You will get a different answer.

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-52999315

https://www.savethestudent.org/news/students-reveal-the-degrees-that-are-the-best-and-worst-value-for-money.html

I feel like most middle class professionals are pretty blind to this realm.
MN is biased. Considering most women did a non-STEM degree and most did not go into a trade. They can't see the benefits of the other side.

I agree with both of these statements.

@StepAwayFromTheBiscuitJar Completely agree. Many middle class parents don't realise qualifying in a trade can get them more money, higher job security and potentially higher job satisfaction.

I have close family members doing a trade. They are not smart. It is fine. They earn more than most people who a liberal arts degree. They are never unemployed.

One left school after Yr9. He became a qualified plumber, gas safe engineer and electrician. He is never unemployed. He always has a lot of jobs. He consistently earns over £80k. No mortgage by the time he reached 40. The job gives him huge satisfaction. Age discrimination is not that rampant. People value his experience.

Another one dropped out before Yr9. He was not smart enough to pass any of the plumber / electrician exam. It was still fine for him to make a living. You don't need to pass exams to do some of the jobs. He was still earning more than an average qualified accountant!

Sound like he is bright and would be perfectly placed to study tourism or languages if he has a knack for it? Is he interested in travel?

Yes, and they're the ones who are aghast when a tradesman wants to be paid more than minimum wage! They don't seem to realise that a lot of "manual" or "practical" jobs are actually very well paid and still require people with a brain, not just brawn.

They're also the ones who won't even consider their little darlings going into manual/practical work and push them into academic pursuits, like arts or humanities degrees that they're not interested in and not really capable of doing.

We need an entire culture shift towards understanding the wide range of manual/practical careers available (it's where the shortages are and will only get worse), and we need to lose the stigma of people getting their hands dirty as being only for the uneducated/neanderthals.

One of my close friends at school was a "A" grade pupil at a time when it was the exception rather than the norm (i.e. someone getting a string of A's was really, really rare back then). Sixth form tutor kept hassling him because he hadn't filled in his UCAS application (or whatever it was called back then). He left after getting his A levels, and became his father's apprentice (who was a plumber). He's now long retired, driving around in his porsch and living in a million pound house after a very successful and lucrative working life as a plumber & gas safe heating engineer. We used him to fit a boiler and his work was excellent - the best we've ever seen from any tradesman - he came to do the quote on time, provided us with a professional written quote, started the job on time, finished on time, and even painted the exposed pipework for us having boxed in what he could, he also cleaned up and vacuumed at the end of each day! What more can you want? Far better than the knuckle dragging neanderthal plumber we suffered more recently who was boasting that he didn't bother at school and got no qualifications (and did a shoddy/messy job!).

I can't believe so many posters think your ds should head to uni with no idea what he wants to do. That's mad. It's tens of thousands of debt. Which is well worth it once you have a plan, very much not if you don't.

Of course he should take a year out. Work, research and figure out what he wants to do and how to get there.

He could continue his Spanish, which is an amazing concrete, marketable skill.

I agree that MN is a bad place to seek advice on this.

We need an entire culture shift towards understanding the wide range of manual/practical careers available (it's where the shortages are and will only get worse), and we need to lose the stigma of people getting their hands dirty as being only for the uneducated/neanderthals.

👏👏👏👏
Hear hear