The death taboo in England.

[Fifi1010]

I did a training session on dying well and wow so many people are so uncomfortable with dying even mentioning it . I have a will and life insurance. I have informed my family of my current wishes and I have written this down. If I change my mind I will update it. I don't think of death a lot but I see it as inevitable and a transition.

It saddens me when people haven't done the planning so decisions are made in crisis when emotions are high and people might not get the end they would want. What could be done to ease the taboo of death?

I don't know really. I think it's relevant for end of life care, but the after bit is for those are are greiving in my opinion.

My mum died when I was relatively young - 23 - and told me some of her wishes. I went against them because it was best for those around her (e.g. she asked me to not let my dad be involved in her death at all, at 23 I couldnt' cope with it alone so asked him to help me, she asked not to have a funeral but many people were asking and expressing wanting to say goodbye so I did one, etc). I felt guilty for many years for "going against her wishes", but it was the only way I could deal with it at the time.

No need for guilt, particularly for arranging a funeral. Funerals are for the living, not the dead. I’m really sorry and don’t want to upset you but I think decreeing no funeral is monumentally selfish. It’s not as if you’re going to be there.

My great grandmother was a village midwife and ‘wise woman’ in very rural Northumberland at the turn of the last century. So she had a lot of experience at both ends of life, she delivered babies and laid out the dead.

Obviously I didn’t know her , but she was a powerful figure in my upbringing, through my Gran and mother’s tales of her. She dealt with suicides and murdered bodies, as well as the natural deaths. At that time, death in childbirth was unfortunately quite common, too.

So even though I have not had such direct experience, I was brought up knowing about death, and I suppose accepting it. I find the current attitude of ‘if you ignore it it will go away ‘ baffling. There was a thread on here where a child’s Guinea pig had died when they were on holiday, and the parents were scouring pet shops to try and find one which looked similar enough to fool the child into thinking it was the same.

This is not kind, really. Of course the child would be devastated for a while. But it is losing a valuable opportunity to cope with loss and sorrow, so that when the larger sorrows happen, you have some preparation.

I don't think it was selfish in my mum's case, I think she was worried people wouldn't come and didn't want to burden me with having to arrange anything for her. Not letting my dad be involved was selfish though, she would rather that I had to cope with it alone than have my dad support me by helping because of the issues they had when they divorces (no abuse or cheating or anything as far as I know, she just really disliked him and was angry when he moved on).

I was thinking more of people who say they want to save their kids money and grief by having a direct cremation @Itsbytheby. Having arranged both my parents’ funerals - and found it cathartic- I’ve told our kids that they have a template and they can do what they like within it.

One thing I would avoid is denial prior to death in spite of a relative's declining health. I have seen some sad Facebook posts wishing a loved one a swift recovery when they have died the next day. I wonder if in some cases people are in utter denial about death through grief and can't mentally take in medical statements on health?

I think this chimes with a nurse on a course who told me that so many bad deaths occurred due to relatives wishing or at least not preventing invasive procedures at the end of life? Is it possible that we have a culture of medics viewing death as failure so instinctively in some cases trying everything to avoid the inevitable often pressured by family?

we should not view ourselves as fighting disease in our mid eighties but possibly as passive actors in what are the inevitable symptoms of death in reality.

@AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii

Agree with this. However I feel that for cancer treatment any benign mention of not going through a full radical treatment can be met with accusations ageism or 'letting the patient down'. There must be cases where radical radiotherapy is completely inappropriate and extremely distressing for a very frail patient get it still happens. It is often the fact with the extremely elderly that although you may have some tumour cuts at great cost the patient will die of a co morbidity. (This actually skews mortality audits for cancer treatments).

a hospital must be horrible environment to die in really. The equipment is set up for life preservation not easing the passing of life. I support therefore the use of local hospices (or home) as the best place for some ones final days or hours.

@mids2019 yes you are right although much of the time people choose to have all of the invasive treatment despite being told it would be not much use. For me personally I wouldn’t want all of the treatments many in my care opt for because I have seen how it can turn out

unfortunately dying at home doesn’t always guarantee a peaceful pain free death either, many people wish to die at home without taking into account the other people still living at home and how they will cope then when it gets to crisis point etc they end up dying in hospital or with very distressed family, many choose to die at home in the rural areas that we cover which can take more than 30 mins to get to which means they may be in pain for a length of time before we can get to them to administer breakthrough etc.

I sincerely hope that in my time things will be much more plainly put, we are very good at keeping people alive but with very little quality of life and often in very bad health this needs to change

It’s also because so few people see a person dying, especially at home. Death is medicalised now so much. Before the NHS most people couldn’t afford to have a loved one die in hospital, and a lot less conditions were treatable - even antibiotics weren’t readily available until ww2

so, we don’t experience death in our homes

and then during 1914-18 a whole generation of young men died - people had to talk about it then

imagine being someone like Charlotte Brontë- nursing sister after sister through TB at home, then an Alcoholic brother - sure would give rise to gothic literature and dark imagination

Also we are very bad at stopping treatment when it blatantly obvious it should be stopped to allow the dying process to happen

I watched my mother die (in a hospice). I can't say its an experience I would recommend widely. The fact people aren't dying at home because they can't afford hospital is - to me - at good development not a bad one (although I think people (the dying and their families) should be better supported in their end of life choices).

Dying at home is a lovely ambition for the dying. But I think it’s a selfish wish if there is a spouse still alive, or someone who will remain in the house after. Having to walk into your bedroom and go to bed in same room as your spouse died must be horrible - there is no escape from the grief and you’ll constantly be thinking about there last hours in a particular space.
id hate to lumber my loved ones with that

I don’t disagree - see my above post that it seems selfish to wish to die at home if you have a spouse who will need to continue to live there- very selfish

Yes. Also dying isn't the hallmark version of dying where they whisper I love you and close their eyes and drift away peacefully. It can be quite upsetting to witness, especially if you don't know what you are expecting or there is noone there to support you.

Two people have died recently - a family member of DH, and someone I knew through work - who have requested no funeral. Potentially tough on the people left behind, as the funeral is for them not the deceased and having a ritual or ceremony of some part is part of the process of grief.

I couldn't care less what sort of funeral is held for me, but I've told DH (much to his discomfort) that I want to be cremated and where I want my ashes scattered - though I'm ok with a small portion of them being placed somewhere where they could be visited by DH and DS if they wished, but I want my atoms to be free to go and become something else, not to be trapped in an urn under ground (or on a mantlepiece/whatever).

As others have said, I abhor the euphemistic language surrounding death. 'Passed' ' Passed away' ' passed on'.

It's repugnant and offensive. My mother died in January and despite making it abundantly clear, people still persisted with these nonsense terms.

I also made it very clear at work that I wanted people to know my mother had died, and it was interesting how few people had the courage or basic decency even to mention it and express condolences. I will forever think the lesser of all of them.

Death is at once a profound and utterly mundane event. It helps no one to hide reality behind puerile language.

I think some people think you are only OK with death if you are sailing and showing lots of emotions whereas I think you can be perfectly ok with death even if you don't cry and aren't demonstrative.

My family would probably have looked a bit stiff-upper-lip when my Dad died but we've all been comfortable talking about our feelings. We didn't have any kind of funeral or service. We are sad he died but his death is just a tiny jigsaw piece in his whole life.

I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks (so not at all comparable to people who have lost pregnancies later on) and I felt sad but I wasn't that bothered. I went back to work a few days later. From reading mumsnet posts I know plenty of women are absolutely distraught having gone through the same thing. I don't think either reaction is right or wrong but I'd resent anyone telling me that not crying and not being that bothered means I'm not dealing with it properly. For me being busy and getting back to work was the right way of dealing with it.

Who sits around the table and start discussing death with their families?
I mean I could understand in certain situations where that conversation will need to happen but other than that I can't see why an average person would be discussing such or is it just me?

I think the older you get the more your mortality sits on your shoulder. We’re a family that’s very open about death. We’ve had several losses in the last few years which have obviously prompted discussion.

*As others have said, I abhor the euphemistic language surrounding death. 'Passed' ' Passed away' ' passed on'.

It's repugnant and offensive.*

To some and surely it is dependent on the belief or thought of what happens when people die. My parents believe in heaven so to them using “passed on” means to do so to heaven. I believe in reincarnation so “passed on” is also used in that respect.

I doubt anyone is going out of their way to use it to offend you or others.

We did when when we discovered that my parents had no will. Myself and my sister asked them to do something about it. Also (yes we are in Ireland) we would discuss funerals if we had been at one . I know my mother wants flowers on her coffin similar to princess Diana's lol and a really good singer at the mass and my father absolutely hates eulogies and wants very little fuss and we knew my mil wanted a closed coffin so we all respected that when she died

This isn't the case in my circle OP. Death is talked about, maybe because I am in my 50's and have a reasonable amount of experience of death/serious illness/wills etc

When I was younger I didn't spend much time talking/thinking about death which I think is a good thing.

Both my parents compiled a "death file" . In it were their wills, their wishes for their funerals, where the ashes were to be scattered, which undertaker they wanted, all details of bank accounts, insurances, etc, which they kept locked away with copies of the key given to me and my sister. We knew about it and where it was. As they both died in 2020 we were unable to carry out some of their wishes but not having to hunt for documents and knowing exactly what they wanted made it so much easier. I have now done the same and both my DP and DD know precisely what I want and where the file is kept.

We’ve done that too @GotABeatForYouMama.

@Blossomtoes is right, I think, @isitjustmey - as you get older - and as you watch your parents get older - you find yourself thinking more about death. But if you don’t want to sit around the table and have the conversation, then a letter/document with their wishes for the funeral, in the way @GotABeatForYouMama describes, is an alternative.

If you don’t have any guidance or conversations about it, it can make the immediate aftermath even more stressful and distressing.