Dispute with builder escalated to assault

[pollykitty]

I had a bizarre violent altercation today with a builder, and I don't know what to think or do about it anymore. I think I am still in shock and would appreciate some objective advice.

The long version: A couple of weeks ago I was looking for someone to clear a part of our garden. An old shed, overgrown area, old rotten swing set and small patio (not cement, like klinker stones). I could not find anyone and posted on one of these sites where you tell them about the job and then tradespeople get in contact to make quotes. This young guy (called Ollie) got in touch almost immediately. He has a company and everything. He came around with a coworker and they seemed ok. He said he could clear my garden in a day with a small digger and would send me a quote. Since it was a bit of an unknown quanitity in terms of labor, he quoted 45/hr per man and for the digger and diesel. Since he said it would take 1 day, I thought ok, that would be fast and expensive (around 1,600). But alright.

Three of them showed up on a the day (last Thursday) around 10:30am and started working. No digger in site. They disappeared at lunchtime for 3 hours. Came back and said 'we had to go do something else'. Worked a bit again, digger arrived at 3pm and they left again for 2 hours with a full trailer. Came back at did some more until 7pm (ug). But it wasn't done. And when they left the house, the passageway through the garage/house was absolutely filthy (we don't have side or rear access to our garden). Also unbeknowst to us at the time, diesel had been spilt all over the garage floor. We didn't smell it at first but then I woke up in the night gagging due to the fumes. They did clear most of the back but not everything and said they would come back next day.

On Friday two of them showed up at 10:30 and it was obvious to me by then that they were just stretching out the time as much as possible to charge me. I still thought 'ok it will be more but fine'. It was infuriating to watch though. They'd work for like 45 minutes, disappear for 2 hours, come back, disappear etc. They said the traffic to the tip was terrible. By 6pm I was fed up and wanted them out of my house. Ollie showed up at 4pm and helped them finish up. Around 7pm I actually had to kick them out of my house. They were standing in the garage smoking. Again, the house was an absolute TIP in the area near the garden. They moved furniture around, mud everywhere. It took us 2 days to fully clean up.

Any guesses as the the invoice they sent me? If you were thinking 2K or 3K or 4K you'd be wrong. 5K.

I nearly had a heart attack. They added charges that had never been mentioned to me. 800 for mileage to the tip. 800 for waste disposal. And claimed 52 hours of labor. My husband and I sat down and worked out what we thought was fair and reasonable. We accomodated the charges that were not in the offer. It came to about 3500.

We wrote a letter(email) explaining our dispute, and asked them to provide futher evidence of their work. Such as receipts from the waste site and so on. The address of the waste site (for mileage) etc. Ollie started calling me nonstop. He sent harrassing texts. His brother got involved. My husband called them and asked them to reply to the email, and we'd go from there.

To be fair they did. But their reply was nonsensical and difficult to follow and while some receipts were valid, others were dated from early March and clearly not from our house. We believe now that the reason they were gone so long was that they were picking up rubbish from other sites or even their own rubbish, adding it to our trailers, and trying to charge us. From the moment they sent their reply, they started harrassing me. I received approximately 20 phone calls last night between midnight and 3am. Texts saying if I don't pay, we're going to stick the bailiffs on you and charge interest. Etc. Also just general demands to respond.

We did respond, adding a bit more to accomodate the receipts, and sent 4000 today. We disputed the rest in a registered letter.

So he got 4000 quid 5 days after his invoice was sent. Today he the left me a voice mail saying he was going to 'dump my garden garbage on my drive unless i paid the rest of my bill'

And then he did. He showed up with his van and trailer and his mate. He didn't get on to my drive, because I moved the car to the end, but started dumping it out of the trailer on the side walk. I had literally just come home when he turned up and started filming him doing so (after calling the police) and then he assaulted me.

He shoved me and tried to punch me. Luckily it's on video.

I wasn't really hurt but unfortunately the police didn't show up until after. Of course what came then was a lot of shouting back and forth, as the police tried to descalate the situation. At first they were like, 'it's a civil matter'. But then I showed one copper the video and he changed his mind. Because he dumped a huge amount of garden sht on the pavement, the city will have to clean it up. He will fined for cleaning it up. He will receive a fine for fly tipping etc. They open a file for the assult. I should add, we were right about our theory. Not only was he lying about taking our garbage to the tip (otherwise why would he still have it??), he left stuff on the sidewalk that does not even belong to us. Including 8 huge tyres.

Now I am here typing this because my husband and I disagree about what to do (not angrily, just under discussion). I want to go to lawyer. I really don't know if I can do anything. I want to file a counter claim for a refund as he lied about going to the tip (he even said 'I have 9 more loads to dump on you' And I want to do anything I can to get this guy shut down and out of business. I want to leave the most devastingly worded google review so that no one ever hires him again. I actually believe not to do so is like, immoral on my part. Am I being overly righteous? I think he intimidates people (especially women) into paying exhorbitant bills (after luring them in with lowball offers) and he belongs in jail. I' m not saying I can make that happen, just my opinion. My husband says 'if he goes away and we never hear from him again, that's a win'. But he wasn't the one who was harrassed on the phone and via email and texts. And assaulted.

WWYD?

SHORT VERSION: Hired a builder/contractor guy. Got send a huge bill. Disputed the bill. Got assaulted.

I agree with you. Beyond hiring him I think it was a big mistake to be so quick. Last night I thought, I could have somehow put him off for a bit longer and thought more. I think a lot of posters on here do not really comprehend how nuts he went after our first complaint. He sent me texts saying PAY ME NOW. He called me 25 times. He is not a person to settle things civilly. He said I will dump your rubbish because that is justice. I called the police and their advice was do not engage with him and come file a complaint. I couldn’t even get to that stage. This has happened in the course of 6 days!!
He is not interested in legally taking me to court to get the rest of his money. He knows he is doing illegal shit so this is his method.

I’m not a violent person but it’s an interesting debate when terrible things happen to law abiding people. This isn’t even that terrible really. In the US people see the police as ineffective and that’s why they are possessive of and love their guns.

I went through similar, it was a long time ago but I still feel annoyed and scared that I lost over 1k to violent thugs. I was a young single mum fleeing domestic abuse. These men harassed me for months. Turned out one had been to jail for attacking a teen with his garden tools a few years before they ruined my garden and harassed me. I can't believe they were near my DC. I was too scared and traumatised with ptsd from my ex to do anything about it, so thank you for taking action and keeping someone else safe.

How did they get a digger into your garden with no side or back access?

Do you have your agreement in writing? If not, why not?

They went through the garage and house. We have a garage and a wider than normal doorway from there to back of house which is a conservatory lean on. It’s hard to describe. Not a hexagon or square one. Like a big rectangle across back of house. Then double sliding doors fully open. You’d surprised what diggers can do and how they can move. They can make the tractor wheel thingies wider and narrower for instance. and also make it kind of go up and over doorways.

We had work done that was terrible and needed re-doing but were advised by citizens advice to pay him or we would be in trouble, so through fear we did 😡 big mistake!

Instead we had to sue him and take him to court, it's basically up to them whether or not they will pay it back. If they don't care about a ccj or are winding up their company, then you're out of luck. There's no help after that unless you want to spend more time and money.

Luckily ours paid but we were very lucky.

Just a warning to others.

The victim blaming on this post is abhorrent. I'm so sorry this happened op, you must be so shaken up.

The police I presume are investigating the assault which could potentially go to court, and trading standards could possibly investigate and also pursue it.
Posting on social media can potentially involve posting about things which could be used in the investigations, attracting many comments from others which can go off on a tangent, involve speculation, and possible abuse towards the builder, they can understandably be emotionally charged and could unintentionally undermine potential investigations. If it gets personal towards the builder, it could also unintentionally cross the line to harassment etc.
Social Media has its uses but can easily take on a life of its own and actually make matters worse. If you do use it, just make sure the posts are thought out, and carefully worded and don't decent into a farse for these reasons.

Contact the group you got him from and name him on there. Tell them all that happened. I'll bet there are more people being scammed and bullied by him and his cohorts!!
Contact CAB and Trafing Standards - CAB are real solicitors and they will help you.
I doubt he'll take you to court as he'll probably come off worse, but definitely ask CAB if it's worth suing him (I think it is, imagine what you could've done with that money).
Petrol in the garage, sheesh, one spark and I hate to think what could've happened!!!
A decent man/company would've cleaned up after themselves and given you proper receipts!
I'm so angry for you, and I don't even know you!!

This is actually what I thought. I have zero financial incentive really to go after him. You can say yes you do but this was also part of our rationale to pay him so much. We were thinking well who knows what courts will think about his claims and if we only give him 2K he might sue and we’d have to pay more plus legal costs. We discussed the options in depth. We hoped he would just go away and we’d chalk it up to experience.

I'm so sorry you've had all this shit. Ring your local MP and get them on board, they have alot of clout and its their job to help. See how it goes at the police station today and don't be frightened to say you'll escalate a complaint if they don't take you seriously
Standing there and watching them dump stuff is criminal not civil surely?

Sorry , meant local councillor

What a nightmare. And I think this sort of thing, absolute contempt for the law and for other people, is increasing as the police become weaker and weaker. People

As you say, OP, thugs like this don’t exist in the US because they cannot get away with it. Defence of self and property is king in US. I actually dont want to live in a place with guns but then sometimes I think ‘man a gun would have been handy here.

Guns aren’t the answer. The answer is effective policing and criminal justice system. Why isn’t this a political priority?

Asked if they could go inside with You??? What the hell? @pollykitty

I absolutely don't think you deserve to be assaulted. They're cowboys who have taken advantage of you. You won't be his first or last victim and the fault lies entirely with him.

But it IS important to highlight good practice in hiring tradespeople. To avoid others going through this.

• always get multiple quotes, being mindful of particularly cheap and expensive quotes.

• try to get feedback from other customers before agreeing. Local Facebook groups are great for this.

• never agree to hourly or day rates. You have a job that needs doing; hourly rates allow for people to take longer than what is reasonable and still charge. Job charges incentivice tradespeople to quote correctly and work efficiently.

That isn't blaming you. It's just spreading good practice to avoid becoming a victim to this kind of ploy. We locally have an issue at the moment with people coming around to houses to point out issues in roofs and offer services then and there. It's another scam, that people fall for all the time. The steps above would avoid this.

Yes and even if you win, he doesn't HAVE to pay. I was so annoyed that I actually messaged my local MP, who was no help whatsoever.

Basically rogue traders can do whatever they like in this country. It's all on the wronged party. Luckily my DH is very analytically minded but it took over a year to get to court.

Also for others who had bad work done, you have to give them chance and time to come and fix it. Doubt you'd want someone who has hit you to come back to your house! But hey-ho that's what the court will want to see. Thankfully ours refused but that was after my DH messaged him for months on end.

He can just dissolve his company and company debts and start a new company. You have zero recourse if so.

The system is an absolute joke.

The description of the third man just jumped out at me. Do you think there could be a modern slavery aspect to this too? Was the third man a different nationality or do you think he might have had learning difficulties? I’ve watched enough of this stuff in documentaries to know it goes on everywhere.

Someone's probably already said this, but I'd add to avoid these "find a tradesman" sites like the plague. I completely get the attraction if you're in a rush and struggle sourcing anyone else, but many reputable ones won't touch them with a bargepole so what's left can be those who can't get work any other way because nobody will recommend them

I think local Facebook groups are awful. You end up with girlfriends / friends 'recommending' their partners company. Anyone we've found via facebook has been crap.

Conversely, the joiner and tiler we found on checkatrade were brilliant and the only people we've ever recommended to friends.

My recommendations from Facebook have all been great, but it's my area/estate fb page and so you can see the same trademen being recommended multiple times by various people who you might know from the school gates etc so know are genuine, and the tradesmen all live locally as well.

Gosh this is awful!

So sorry OP and ignore the posters who are being horrible. Totally out of order!

I would do as another poster said and just try to draw a line. Like you I would be beyond fuming and want money back but equally as they said this man sounds dangerous. It’s not right we should keel over to bullying and aggression and if you want to make a stand you should but I also think this seems like a final end and any further action could cause a reaction if he is so unhinged. Very unfair but you need to concentrate on pursuing the assault IMO, and could log with a lawyer so you have a record of wanting to take further action but being too threatened.

Next time you consider landscape work I recommend the Bali list. It is an approved list of reputable companies.

With regard your new garden - just be careful with planting near to or in summer. We are landscapers ourselves. We very occasionally do plant towards end of spring but only on super small jobs and grit our teeth, pray to the weather gods, refuse to warranty plants and warn the clients it’s less than ideal!

Ideally you want to plant September to Feb; can just about get away with March. The reason being the plants will stress and root growth will be in the zone where water is. When artificially watering or light summer showers this is usually the top layer of soil. Meaning their roots grow in the danger zone which becomes driest first naturally. Making every summer onwards a battle of watering and god help you if there’s a drought!

You can help avoid this by watering infrequently but for really long. So that when they do get water it is down in the bottom layers. But it is a hell of a lot of water and not very sustainable way to do it.

Goodluck. Hoping they don’t return and that’s the end of this nightmare for you! So sorry you had to go through this.

If you paid via bank or card I would attempt to get that back or put a hold on the payment if possible.

If not, the max claim for small claims court is 10K, however you won't get your money back that way you will make his life a bit more annoying, but that is about it tbh (you would win, but they've no way of actually making him pay in any meaningful way...).

You can push for police action on the criminal behaviour - I would, but there will likely be repercussions which you'll need to get decent evidence of to take further (good cameras around the house).

It is infuriating and the smug 'you should have....' posters are infuriating too - it is NOT easy to find decent trades people who are not rip off merchants and bullies, those who make their money behaving like these guys have are VERY good at it, very good at pretending to be professional!

if you want to take it to small claims court if yu have any evidence of the porice and how many men he said would work you could do that not alot to file for it but yeah he just might not pay ot back
noone can press charges here for assualt like op said its up the police and cps if anyone is charged

It's OK until the cowboys return with guns instead of a truck filled with garbage...

As you say, OP, thugs like this don’t exist in the US because they cannot get away with it. Defence of self and property is king in US. I actually dont want to live in a place with guns but then sometimes I think ‘man a gun would have been handy here.

My American husband has had a good laugh about this. They most certainly do exist in the US and are more dangerous. Your husband wouldn’t have been able to get in their face screaming at them to get the fuck off his property for one. The police might have rolled up and shot everyone and then sorted out who actually is the homeowner and who the aggressor.