Do I have to accept that it is in fact me that’s the issue?

[MumsTheIssue]

DC is 8, Y4. This has been going on since Y2.

Perfect at school, no behaviour issues at all, no issues with academics, small but close group of friends. Quite quiet but will speak when spoken to and in the last few months growing in confidence. Eats fine.

ExH says they’re perfect there, quiet but easy going and will chat when wants to. Eats fine.

At home they’re the complete opposite:

• Violence aimed at me, repeatedly no matter what I do they keep going for up to 3 hours – if I ignore it carries on, if I try and tell them off it carries on, if I change rooms they follow me, if I put them into a different room they laugh and come back, if I talk to them they laugh and carry on

• Will not eat unless it's on a specific plate or bowl

• Does not respond to praise

• Does not respond to being given an instruction such as “Can you tidy up your toys please?” if I repeat it more firmly “Tidy up toys please” they still ignore me – if I take all their toys away they just shrug, if I stop screen time (they can earn 4 hours to be used at the weekend) they just shrug, if I stop them going to parties/activities etc. they just shrug and say they don’t care.

• I literally cannot punish them as they just don’t care. They won’t stay in timeout/a spot if they’re being violent towards me, I have tried returning them but they just laugh and think it’s a game

• Tells me they hate me regularly and they are going to live with their dad as soon as they’re old enough (they see him EOWend for 1 night only, never for school runs or appointments or anything else “boring”) but only when in a violent rage, when calm they say the love me a lot but never that they want to live with me, but they also don't say they want to live with ExH either

• School refuses – we’re regularly late for school but as soon as we’re there it’s like a lightbulb and they’re suddenly all sweetness and light

• Will not go to sleep – returning them to bed is a game again, they then fall asleep in class

What I’ve tried:

• A meeting with school for repeated lateness and falling asleep in class – they blamed me, told me to get DC up earlier (I can’t get them up any earlier, we’re already up at 6am, and they go to bed at 7.30pm) and said I needed to be “More persistent” with returning them to bed, even though DC told them it’s a fun game. They’ve told me they’ll refer it to Social Services if it keeps happening. I asked for a CAMHS referral to rule out SN and was told that DC doesn’t meet the criteria

• Took them to a private GP to rule out a medical cause – got brushed off and told it’s schools problem without them even checking DCs ears or any kind of examination - yes I demanded my money back, I was expecting at least a basic examination so I know that DC is healthy, I wasn’t demanding to the GP, I just expected a check of the ears, throat, chest (maybe nose), and maybe a basic urine test – my grandparents paid for this and where willing to pay for anything above that if the GP felt it necessary but I wasn’t even given any advice just told it’s behavioural and schools problem

• Spoke to someone for a private diagnosis of SN and told that I need schools backing for them to do so I can’t go down that route

• Took them to a private physio when they complained of pain (again my Grandparents paid for this) – who was very very good, but couldn’t find a physical issue and just advised me to get some properly fitted shoes for DC (which I did and hasn’t improved the behaviour at home)

I feel like I’m going mad. I’m looking into an EHCNA, but Sendiass have said if school are saying it’s a home problem and ExH is saying he has no issues with DC there then it will be an uphill battle that may not be won. I’m considering asking for a course of private play therapy from my grandparents, but I don’t want to keep taking money off them if I can help it.

Do I just accept I’m the issue? And if so how do I change? ExH will not parent full time so I have to. So it’s not an option for me to give in or give DC up though at times I have considered it

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Being fine at school and the NRPs but then coming home and just exploding. DC is always sorry but can’t seem to explain what happens when they’re in those moods. It’s not all bad, but I am so exhausted and feel like I can’t relax in case DC explodes.

How long would they sit for? My youngest tried this once, she lasted 2 days in an empty room (she kept her bed obvs) before she realised we weren't backing down and it never happened again, just the threat was enough.

Long weekend - so 3 days as DH dug his heel in it clearly wasn't working just getting entrenched - though other times fewer items were taken for weeks.

Its not like my kids aren't disciplined or well behaved, well mannered and hard working other people generally think they are all these things.

It's just removing items and sticker charts never made any impression on that child at all - we know because we tried and often found other's insisting it would work then trying their version and finding it didn't work.

We had to find what did work for that child.

Some of the pushier parents who insisted x worked with their child so must with ours and if it didn't it was our fault for doing it wrong all seem to have tearaway teens they do nothing but moan about - and we as we enjoy ours - which does occasional and very privately make me feel very smug.

Op SEN board may be better place to post for tips.

These kinds of issues aren't unusual when a DC is under an enormous amount of stress but doesn't feel safe to express themselves in some places e.g. at school or at non-resident-parent's home. The place where all the anxiety and misery and refusal to cooperate comes through is the place where they feel safe, and loved, and cherished. Take this as good news, you are your DC's refuge against a tempestuous and unfriendly world.

My advice would be to look into "Low Demand Parenting" - this isn't the same as letting your DC have their own way in everything and ride over you roughshod. Start with having some time which is completely zero-demand though in order to have a rest from all the strife. Be clear that this is limited-time "I know you have been feeling very stressed and overwhelmed at the moment, so I am not going to try to get you to do chores like I have been, we'll talk about it another time once you have had a chance to rest"

When the time is right, try things like instead of saying "tidy up the toys now or there will be no screentime" which is experienced as a demand that may feel overwhelming, instead try something like "It would be lovely to snuggle up on the sofa together to watch a film once the sitting room is clear, if I get on with sorting things out in the kitchen, maybe you could see how much of the toys you can manage to put away before I am done there, it's OK if you can't manage everything, if anything is too big or too complicated to do by yourself that's OK too, just see what you can manage" - sometimes a DC with demand-avoidant traits will end up doing just as much helpful chores when it's a "see what you can manage" as they would have if you had given them an instruction and a target.

This is pretty much what I was going to say.

I know it’s not much comfort OP but the reason you are the one he acts up with is because you are the one he feels safe enough to “let go” with iykwim? It may not seem like it at times but he does love you.

Silly question maybe but do you give him lots of cuddles/attention? I know that’s hard when you are feeling upset with his behaviour but he needs to know that you love him unconditionally. He sounds very angry.

I just wanted to say you sound like a great mum and despite what you may think you are doing your best for him - the fact you are so desperate for help shows how much you care. I hope things get better 💐

Masking? You are the person he is comfortable with. My child is exactly like this saves it all up for me. Although she does say she also feels safest with me. It is hard work. I feel your pain. Look up sunshine support they do lots of webinars and offer help but you have to pay.

@MumsTheIssue please be discerning when you are reading through the posts here. There are loads and loads of parents with similar experiences to yours who are all saying the same thing and then the odd post of a poster with literally no experience or expertise with children with SN saying very critical things about your parenting. Please weigh the responses appropriately not every opinion carries equal weight.

@ColonelDax

My youngest tried this once, she lasted 2 days in an empty room (she kept her bed obvs) before she realised we weren't backing down and it never happened again, just the threat was enough.

That's fucking barbaric.

Friend’s son was same at about 9, parents had divorced more recently than you. Fine in school, dad said ( smugly) no problems when at his but every evening he’d trash the house, shouting, yelling abuse. I was living overseas at the time but she’d phone me in tears and I could hear furniture crashing etc..
Then it stopped, as suddenly as it had started.
Just to give you hope OP, he’s a very laid back adult now — so laid back he’s almost horizontal, Uni, job etc…
I hope your son does the same. 💐

I haven’t read everyone’s responses this is just my personal experience . I would say it defiantly isn’t you . My 7 year old ds is like this , he’s autistic .he goes to a special school He’s an angel at school and in front of other people . At home his a nightmare honestly swearing and hitting , throwing things etc … I take his tablet away , taken away the tv etc and literally nothing works , has absolutely no effect on him at all . My daughter was behind at school and I always had a feeling she had sn but I had no idea what … the school told me I had to wait until she was 7 for a educational physiologist to come and look at her at school and at home . This was to see if she had sn or whether it was something at home instead , once this was done and they could see she had sn I went to the dr and was referred to hospital and got a diagnosis a year later . I’m sorry OP I haven’t read all your replies :

1. what is it about bedtime that they are finding hard ? Are they going to sleep too early and maybe struggling to settle , maybe a bit of a later bedtime rather than 7.30. What time do they finally settle once they go down ?

2. have you spoken to the school senco ? I would if possible get an educational physiologist involved either ask the school or go private ..

At 10 years old mine jumped out of his 1st floor bed room window and had to be prevented from jumping out in front of moving vehicles on a busy road.

Another time he broke his bedroom door down.

None of these punishments stopped him from being autistic.

Now we know and parent him accordingly he is the kindest calmest teenager.

I do love a good 'common sense' parents have well behaved kids thread. They literally have no idea.

Gosh, some of these posts are horrible, and I'd say if you've never lived with a child on the spectrum then you have no idea, and you should maybe keep quiet.
This comes from a Mum who has been judged for years over how I have brought up my three children, two diagnosed and one I suspect, as does she, is also on the spectrum too.

OP big hugs to you, its hard, and you do end up self-doubting what you are doing, especially when people are so damn quick to stand in judgement all the time. When the big tantrums, which sound like melt downs start, have you ever tried hugging them and soothing them, no harsh words just reassurance it's all ok. It sounds extreme, but I used to have to restrain one of mine in a hug or on the floor and I would just be saying this is for your own safety as you are hurting yourself - they would be headbutting walls or trying to get at the knives to hurt themselves. I would repeat it over and over and tell them I loved them and wanted to help them. For me this turned around the severity of the melt downs and got them to tell me they didn't really know what they were kicking off for but that in those moments they felt out of control but didn't understand why, and they didn't know how to bring themselves out of it.

This won't go on forever, they do seem to learn how to mostly manage their own emotions eventually. No form of discipline I tried worked until I tried in desperation the opposite tactic, and it worked for us.

Eventually as a Mum you get to work out when a melt down is coming and can learn to divert their attention. Whilst you are living this hell though, it is all consuming and feels like there is no way out of it, please believe me when I say it does get better, this isn't forever.

My child's school wouldn't accept they might be on the spectrum either and blamed me as a single parent, they were also spending time at Dads where he was abusing me verbally for the whole weekend they were with him, and he would also smack both children for the slightest things they did, they were both scared of him. Eventually he stopped bothering with them and this helped hugely, they had a safe and secure space with me. It all settled down again until my child then started being bullied at secondary school and the major hour after hour melt downs began again. School maintained it was my fault and something had to have changed at home.
We've worked out now that this child went undiagnosed and was trying desperately all day at school to fit in and act 'normal' and no matter how they tried and presented themselves they couldn't make and maintain friendships so felt like a failure, they didn't read the social clues like the rest of the class/year so stuck out as different to everyone and felt incredibly lonely.

I asked for years for Social services input and was turned down, maybe let the school refer and have some support. Videoing the melt downs might help if they'll let you, but it might also make them worse, to be fair.
If you can find a local support group then join it, other parents have tips and advice, and they just know how you feel and what you are going through, it makes a difference to have that support.

The problematic child I've been referring to is now grown up and managing themselves amazingly well whilst forging their career and excelling at every turn. There is light at the end of the tunnel, I promise.

Having read your posts I don't think this is something you've mentioned, but do you know what the triggers are for the more extreme behaviours like the hours-long violent outbursts @MumsTheIssue ?

Would it be worth keeping a specific note of everything that happens over the course of a typical fortnight, including the day that your ex has your child?

I was also wondering about bedtime at 7.30pm being a bit early? Some children just need less sleep, and you might get a longer chunk of sleep if some of the to and fro-ing was cut out. You could push bedtime back till 8.30pm and have the hour before bed as quiet time. You could do no screens, or watching a chilled type of programme, or something else calming.

I have two autistic DC and as I was reading your post-OP, I was thinking your DC is autistic - as everyone else has said, it's classic masking behaviour and you are their safe space. It's scant consolation right now I'm sure, but it means they feel safe with you and that allows all the stress and corked-up pressure to come fizzing out.

In our area you also need the backing from the school. Our paediatrics dept has a checklist and if any referrals are made without the items on the checklist, the referral is thrown out. It's a really terrible system, particularly when some schools are very poor at identifying autism (especially in girls, but that's another story).

One of the things that you need in our area is a report from an educational psychologist. The school can arrange this assessment but it costs them £££ so they won't do it unless there's a clear and obvious need. There's usually a huge amount of pressure on Educational Psychologist (EP) services so they might not be willing.

However, it is very possible to get a private assessment done by an EP and I think this would be an excellent starting point. A good EP report can be absolutely invaluable and carries a lot of weight.

You need to start building your evidence too. I know this feels horrible and you shouldn't have to do this, but others need to see what you do. Start keeping a diary of behaviours and activities - you might start to spot a trigger that you hadn't noticed before. For example, worse behaviour on PE days (can be stressful activity for some SEN children), or on Mondays (transition after the weekend), or on Fridays (masking is exhausting and gets harder as the week goes on). The other thing a diary will do is establish a continued pattern of behaviour so you can show it's not just a flare-up, or a temporary reaction.

Video/audio evidence will also be very persuasive. Doctors and schools won't usually hold this type of evidence on their files, but you can show it to them. The EP will find it useful to see what your DC is like at home when they're not being observed. Our EP (not private) came to the house and spent three hours there. My DS (he was 5 at the time) sat in the garden the entire time and refused to enter the house while she was there (she was lovely) even though he'd seen her and engaged with her at school.

Our EP report for DD outright suggested that a diagnosis of autism may apply, and that she needed urgent assessment by paediatrics. Do your research and find one who specialises in autism.

I'm sorry it's so hard to get your DC's difficulties taken seriously. We changed schools as the first school were similar re school refusal. I used to physically carry DS kicking and screaming at the top of his voice and the SENCO said to me "You really do need to get tougher, Mummy"...... But other schools are amazing and completely understand the very complex ways a child with SEN can present. Are you sure they are at the right school to meet/support/understand their needs? You're describing a very classic autism presentation - and the school's response is to threaten SS report?

Anyway - the key thing is gather your evidence, and get professionals on board privately. The EP is a really good place to start. I would also suggest a speech and language assessment privately. My DD didn't have obvious language difficulties but when she was formally assessed, they identified lots of issues that aren't necessarily obvious to a parent. Good luck.

PS - And no, you're definitely not the problem!!

What are the summer holidays like?

The 'common sense' posters on here are not saying they have lived with a child on the spectrum though....that is precisely the point!
MN is very, very quick to 'diagnose' every child with autism or something similar.
Badly behaved (for whatever reason) children do exist and lots of them do not have medical conditions. OPs child could be acting up for multiple reasons and they obviously need to find out what they are.
It is concerning that so many people want a label for every behaviour. Sometimes it is just parenting (not necessarily the OPs fault, just that what she is doing isn't working!).

Common sense my arse……and one of them frankly abusive with her two day lock in for a child.

Sounds tough OP.

You have had a lot of good advice.

You'll see there are similarities with presentations of neurodivergent children so the advice to seek individualised support with behaviours and get on the assessment pathway for neuro-developmental conditions is sound.

If your GP is unwilling to refer after you've laid out what is happening (in the same way as you have at the start of the thread), then yes, if you possibly can, consult a clinical or educational psychologist. If they think an assessment is indicated they may be willing to drop a note to that effect to your GP.

Please be compassionate towards yourself and your child. Bear in mind children generally do the right thing if they are able; what looks like rudeness or disobedience may simply be a lack of development capacity or extreme anxiety.
If this is the case then, yes, you might need to do some things differently to avoid triggers and help keep your child regulated - not because you are at fault but because you are the one who can control the environment.

Have a look at Ross Greene's The Explosive Child and the PDA Society's PANDA model. It might be interesting to see if these strategies help or not?

A few people seem to have a need to suggest that common neurodisabilities like autism, and presentations like masking, aren't real. (I guess some people think the earth is flat or climate change is made up). These conditions are real and they are quite common. The way most of us find our way to getting our kids assessed is when other parents with kids like ours make the connection. It needs checking out.

You are massively missing the point.

We've all had times when our children weren't diagnosed.

We've all had struggles with schools and agencies and waiting lists.

We are not saying that this DC does have autism just that what the OP is saying rings a bell for so many of us and that OP should exercise caution when punishing her DC because it could make things worse for her.

Some of the 'common sense' approaches can be harmful when used with a neurodiverse child. For ages I didn't believe my DS was autistic because he masked, because school said they couldn't see it etc etc. So I did follow 'common sense' approaches which were extremely damaging to his mental health and to our family life. I wish I'd acted differently.

Whilst this child is being investigated it would be wise for OP to listen to the parents of autistic children when they say don't take away electronics to 'punish' because it makes things worse. Surely you don't think that taking steps to avoid making the OPs life worse is a bad thing?

Suggesting an assessment isn't the same as diagnosing.

A diagnosis is not a fucking label.

If there's no medical diagnosis, then that's fine. But the point is that this child is exhibiting a huge number of behaviours which strongly suggest a spectrum condition - but hasn't been seen or assessed by a medical expert. And that's the issue.

If a specialist had seen and assessed the OP's DC and ruled out autism and ADHD, then fine. But the whole point is that she can't get him in front of anyone to get him assessed.

People with lived experience and personal knowledge of what the OP is going through are saying it COULD be autism/ADHD and then it really warrants pushing for assessment. That's not giving a label. That's suggesting the right route to take.

Children usually "behave badly" for a reason - poor parenting, lack of consistent boundaries, trauma, abuse etc. There doesn't have to be a medical reason, but there's always a reason for poor behaviour in a young child. From what the OP describes, there seems to be zero issues with her having appropriate boundaries or being consistent - so why is her child exhibiting those behaviours ONLY with her? Why are they refusing school? Why is their sleep so poor that they are falling asleep in class? All questions that need to be answered - and the appropriate action is to rule out a medical cause.

Have you got an Early Help service in your area? They might be able to give you some tips and strategies to help. It may be environmental, it may be an interaction between environmental factors and the child’s temperament / personality / neurodiversity. Regardless of the why, it is exhausting for parents and children to be locked in arguments and violent clashes. I hope you can get some support soon.

Also, Yvonne Newbold offers parent support and advice where there is neurodiversity and violent behaviour. Might have some useful information on their website.

It's difficult trying to get help when your just talking to brick walls and nobody is listening. Self refer to SS definitely and film any behaviours you can.

Highly recommend How to Talk so Kids Will Listen; The Book you Wish your Parents had Read and; Hunt, Gather, Parent

So valuable and full of counter intuitive approaches which go against a lot of suggestions on this thread but which are supported by evidence.

Really important stuff, relevant whether a child is ND or NT

Can we just bring everyone down from the heights of autism and remind them that the OPs child has not got any diagnosis at all and is exhibiting behaviours equally consistent with a low discipline environment?

JFC not every naughty child in the world has autism. 🙄

Not to discount the issues raised by pp, have you considered that this could be a battle of wills exacerbated by lack of routine, possible upset/anger at being taken to doctors, specialists etc.? What is your typical morning routine - if you are up at 6, how does the time before school play out for you both?

I only ask because my eldest had a similar phase at the same sort of age. It had a lot to do with uncertain and inconsistent routines for us both… I had to take responsibility for that as the sole parent.

I agree you are their safe place, and unfortunately that means you bear the brunt of the behavioural problems. They may be coping fine at school or masking well, but I have a friend whose child was diagnosed with Autism once in Secondary school. No problems at school until then when they found it very difficult to cope.