Would you give MIL a second chance?

[Maynot]

I genuinely don't know how to feel about this as I'm shocked. For context, DH and I do not smack our DS(6). I am not here to debate that, only note that it is not how we are raising our son. This has never happened before and we are close with MIL, usually seeing her multiple times a week.

DS is autistic and when he gets overly excited he can be rough in play. When playing this morning he bit MIL. MIL then hit him hard on the back and shouted at him that he should not bite. This obviously frightened him. We tried to explain why to him we don't bite/do our usual discipline but he was inconsolable. He kept hiding behind me and asking to go home.

When I went to help DS get ready to leave, DH called her out on it. He said that he understood that it may have been an old habit/instant reaction, however we do not hit DS and to please never do that again. She said that we can parent how we want, but she will discipline as she sees fit.

DH told me this when we got home and we are both shocked and disgusted. We sat DS down and told him that is was wrong to bite his Grandma but it was also wrong for Grandma to hit him. And that if anybody ever hits him again to tell us right away.

DH has said that if it ever happens again that it will be the last time she sees us, however I now feel very uncomfortable. I would maybe agree if she'd apologised however it feels like a looming threat that she will "discipline as she sees fit". Am I overreacting? Would you give her a second chance?

@redbigbananafeet in a later post the OP explains her DS had already let go and turned to go to his dad before MIL hit him in the back as he retreated.

I wouldn't be impressed and it would be a long time before she saw DS again.

If she lashed out to protect herself against a very painful bite and feels bad about it I would defo give a 2nd chance.

@Feetupteashot and to everyone else who has expressed the sentiment quoted above

The whole point of @Maynot's Original Post is that the Grandmother has not shown any remorse, she has not @Feetupteashot said that she "feels bad about it"!

The OP herself has said that although she would still feel upset about the fact that the Grandmother reacted by lashing out, she would not be so worried about her son, who is on the Autistic Spectrum, spending time with his Grandmother if she (the Grandmother) had apologised for hitting him, and had shown that she wanted to understand more about his diagnosis, and how to deal with his reactions on the occasions when his reactions would not be socially acceptable, whatever the occassion happened to be.

However, instead of apologising, the Grandmother still refused to accept that she had reacted badly, and even said that, in effect, she didn't care about the parents wishes/rules, that she would treat her Grandson in whatever way she wanted to. Under those circumstances @Feetupteashot would you still "defo give a 2nd chance"?

If there are any parents here who honestly think it is acceptable for a Grandparent to go against the wishes of normal caring parents, of which the OP and her partner obviously are (I am of course not taking about neglectful parents, or even worse, the monsters we hear about in the news), then would you mind please giving your reasoning?

For Mumsnetters who have no personal experience of people on the spectrum, please believe me when I say that people who are on on the spectrum themselves, can have an awful lot of confusion about how the rest of the world seems to work, and what the "rules" are that they should apparently be following. I am not talking about the more important major laws that everyone who is going to be living in society has to learn to live by, I am talking about behavioural and societal rules that - even after many years as an adult - they may still struggle to understand.

For a child who is on the spectrum - and that spectrum has a very long and complex measurement line, that even experts in the field can have difficulty in knowing where to place any particular child - that child probably has a bewildering amount of information to take in, process, and hopefully eventually understand enough of what society expects, and wants from him or her, for them to be able to join that society and both be accepted as a productive member of it, but also as someone who "fits in" with their fellow human beings.

(Please accept my Disclaimer here - I am well aware that general society itself has far too many members who although they are NT, they behave in a way that is totally unacceptable, and not at all productive in helping society as a whole. Many of them don't deserve to be accepted by society at all. Unfortunately, some of them are so clever with their own presentation, and at manipulating others, that they are never discovered as being the ones that society should be rejecting, and not being allowed to live freely amongst us eg many politicians and others in powerful positions).

Now please think about the parent of a child who is on the spectrum. First of all, that parent (any parent, I am not talking specifically about the OP here) may also be on the spectrum themselves and not even realise it, or they might be completely NT -

I used to know a lady who was a child therapist who worked mainly with the medium of art, she once said to me (maybe outrageously, it was in a different era) that she believed that all men were somewhere on the spectrum -

but whatever label may or may not be relevant to them, that parent has to somehow, not just know how to bring up a NT child, who on their own have many complex needs and wants, but also to learn too pretty bloody quickly how to parent a child with even more complex needs, often without much, or enough, input from the 'experts' in their child's diagnosis. So please Mumsnetters, don't expect any parents of any children with additional needs, to be experts themselves in both any particular condition, and the way it may affect their particular child. With most neurological conditions the parents don't even find out about them at the time of their child's birth, it might be months or even years until they realise why their child doesn't seem to be developing within the norm that the "experts" on child development expect.

So basically, please just stop giving the OP such an awfully hard time on here, I should think that her life is exhausting and hard enough anyway!

I understand grandma's spark of anger and reaction, but her 'disciplining as she sees fit' maybe says something else.

I once slapped my 9 yo nephew. My family were at our home because our son had just been killed in a helicopter mishap, as the military calls it. I was, to say the least, not myself.

He was being a brat and the parents didn't say anything. After a few moments, I reached out and slapped him. Anger at him, at my son's death, fate, God... who knows. Total shock all around.

I knew I was wrong, and a couple of months later when I saw them again, I told him how sorry I was, that I had no right to do that. I apologized to my brother and SIL, and said that I could only imagine my anger if anyone ever slapped one of my children.

I will say, grandma's comment, moreso than the slap, needs to be monitored.

Just thought I would update - although to be honest we are feeling more confused than before. DH tried to speak to his mum but she acted as if she had no idea what he was talking about. She has since been sending very cryptic messages to both of us about how he should be grateful that he didn't have it as bad as some as a child. No mention of DS or the incident though.

We are going to let things cool off a little more before making a decision on how to move forward.

That's fair enough @Maynot Thanks for the up-date.

It sounds to me as if your MiL hasn't matured enough yet to understand when she is in the wrong, and that admitting it to herself first, and then to other people is actually an excellent thing to be able to do. I truly hope for her ownsake that she learns that lesson soon. If she can reach that level of self awareness, she will find that genuinely apologising for her mistakes is actually very therapeutic. So if your MiL does ever get to that stage, please accept her apology graciously, but of course that doesn't mean that it still won't be it a long time until you are able to trust her alone with your dear Son.

I don’t understand at all. You mean she pretended the incident didn’t happen - no bite, no slap - then cryptic messages about how your dh wasn’t hit as badly as some children? Do you think from she knows she’s overstepped, knows hitting these days is wrong (but didn’t have the skills to do it differently when your dh was growing up) and doesn’t know how to climb down from the incident?

Cross post with TheLadyofShalot. I agree she has no self awareness or maturity. What I meant by my comment is that I a, questioning if she knows deep down hitting is wrong but isn’t able to identify or vocalise it. When you’re not very mature, it’s difficult to back down or admit past fault. This would then be causing a lot of strange feelings, which she doesn’t know how to process, hence the cryptic phone calls.

I think the people saying she 'lashed out' on instinct are wrong.

Anyone who has breastfed a baby with teeth will know exactly how painful a sudden bite can be. I am yet to hear of any woman ever throwing their baby across the room when it happened. The instinct is to protect the smaller and more vulnerable person.

Also, OP said DC was already in the process of running away when grandma hit him, so it wasn't automatic- enough time had passed for the child to move away, it wasn't an instantaneous reaction.

It is also not an 'instinct' to pursue a threat that is leaving. He child was running away- he was no further threat to grandma- her hand FOLLOWED him as he ran.

It's absolutely not ok, and her trying to gaslight you over it isn't good enough. I'd demand a family therapy session or two so grandma has to grapple with what she did and learn from it. Also to reset the dynamic so that grandma learns to stay in her lane regarding discipline.

I had a 3 year old, low functioning, non-verbal child in one of my preschool classes several years ago that had a fascination with biting people until they bled/bruised horrifically, then she would LAUGH about it, even if she got in trouble. She knew EXACTLY what she was doing, and she knew dmn well that she shouldn't do it. She got me on the arm one day, and I kid you not, the bruise was the size of a softball, with a knot the size of a golf ball right in the center. (Needless to say, that child was removed from my classroom in less than 2 minutes, and less than three weeks later, was kicked out of the center for doing the same thing to another student and teacher.) It took every bit of willpower I had to keep hold of myself and walk away from that girl. Never in my life, before or since then, have I struggled as hard with my gut reaction as I did that day.

There's no such thing as an "accidental bite," and it is completely offensive that you would indulge this behavior in the slightest. What's going to happen when he does this to another kid, and that kid doesn't care your son is autistic, and gives him an @$$ whooping? I can tell you what's going to happen: you'll get all indignant again and defend him, even though your son will be the aggressor.

Autistic kids aren't stupid, they just learn differently. You need to figure out what teaching method works best for him, and teach him to keep his hands and feet (AND TEETH) to himself. You aren't doing him any favors by enabling his bad behaviors, you're actually making his life harder.

@mybabiesaremylife82

Three year olds are not cognitively capable of understanding the moral consequences of their actions. Let alone three year olds with additional challenges such as neurodivergence and being non verbal.

I'm sorry you were hurt by that child, but it is ludicrous to think she 'knew exactly' how wrong her actions were.

Treating children with disabilities as 'naughty' is incredibly backwards.

@mybabiesaremylife82 OP had figured out how her child learns and is following the same behaviour management plan as his school. She is not indulging his behaviour, but she is not hitting him.

Your experience should have shown you that it is impossible to prevent a biter biting at all times. That would require a muzzle of some sort. It happens quickly and with no warning.

Your attitude to that three year old stinks, frankly. A three year old autistic child does not understand what they're doing in the sense that you think. Yes, she laughed, and yes, it's maddening and we have to fight our instincts when they do so. But she clearly had no concept of other people's feelings and what biting does to them. Only the sensory effect that it gave her, and possibly the 'entertainment' that other people's reaction provided.

I get that it's a difficult and frustrating situation, and as a career lifetime teacher of such children, I had to help many new TAs through the process of understanding what's happening (or not) for these children. And yes, we all got bitten on occasion. It hurts and it's upsetting.

It's the most difficult of the behaviours to manage, and far worse for the parents. No-one wants their child to bite, and for the family to become pariahs (and have the child thrown out of nursery). I've never met a parent who didn't address it and work alongside us to do so. So spare OP your venom.

Horrible. I couldn’t look at her the same way.

@mybabiesaremylife82 fuck me. Please tell me you don't work with children. That's abhorrent.

I had a 3 year old, low functioning, non-verbal child in one of my preschool classes

She knew EXACTLY what she was doing

No she didn't. Because she was three years old, low functioning and non-verbal. Fuck's sake.

I can absolutely understand why you found that child extremely challenging and had a personal dislike of her. But for the love of God, stop trying to justify it by imagining that she was some sort of evil, sadistic Mini Me with total awareness and malicious intent.

Don't be upset at this suggestion but the reaction from her suggests it was quite a serious bite and really hurt. I get the impression he has either not bitten her before or that this time it was very different.

Where did he actually bite her? Some areas of the body are far more reactive than others to sudden pain stimulus. Did you actually see the area after the bite? Are we talking just a bit of slobber or full on puncture wounds?

The implication that she would hit him again if she sees fit would worry me too and I think I would wait until it has calmed down a bit because she doesn't seem to think her reaction was unwarranted at the time and obviously isn't going to change her view.

Don't be upset at this suggestion but the reaction from her suggests it was quite a serious bite and really hurt.

That's funny, because it sounds to me like an absolutely bog standard child-hitter response. Denial, minimisation, ignoring the issue and a sinister implication that the child should be grateful that they weren't assaulted more seriously.

Honestly, it's absolutely textbook. Just confirms to me that she's everything an unrepentant hitter always is. Lovely people.

The idea of you being responsible for children, especially children with special needs, is horrifying. If you spend your time bitching about the SN child you teach on the internet you shouldn't be in that job.

This biting business did bring back a long ago memory. My 2 1/2 yo daughter and peacefully sleeping 6 mo son were in the back seat while I was driving. He suddenly screamed and cried. I hurry pulled off the road and turned, and instantly saw her terrified and guilty little face. I asked what she did, and she said she bit his finger. I asked why, and she answered she just wanted to see what would happen. I picked up her little hand and bit her finger (with little pressure, but enough to hurt), and told her that's how it feels; it hurts. She never bit again.

My friend had two children and her eldest at 3.5 was prone to biting her 2 year old brother.

Each time my friend calmly explained that we don't bite and did time out etc.

My friend is so lovely and a very calm measured parent.
Would never slap.

She was naked after a shower and bending down and her little one bit her on the bum and laughed.

My friend nearly fainted with the shock and pain.

She also felt an enormous guilt for her little boy who this had happened to several times.

She picked up her daughter and bit her on the bum.
Her daughter was distraught with shock and pain too.

She never bit her brother again.

It is the most extraordinary pain.

Yes, she ABSOLUTELY did. She had gotten in trouble REPEATEDLY (and when I say "repeatedly", I mean a LOT) for biting people, not just at school, but at home as well. Again, AUTISTIC KIDS ARE NOT STUPID. They grasp things that you don't think they do. That girl thought it was FUNNY to bite people and inflict pain on them.

Ffs stop acting like autistic and young kids can't learn. AT LEAST half a dozen incidents at the center alone! She knew EXACTLY what she was doing. Foh

So your saying this poor child is what evil? Malicious?

Not all autistic kids are the same. You are projecting your experience of this child who I really hope you were never responsible for or worked with onto OPs son.

I understand what you mean about instinct kicking in.
Personally though if her response was well I will do it my way which includes smacking then she would not be seeing my child. I wouldn't risk it. I don't care about generational differences her attitude is that its perfectly OK to smack children (and is clearly defending herself doing it to your DH!)

Apparently she HASN'T figured out how he learns, or HE WOULDN'T BE BITING AT 6 YEARS OLD, so save your excuses. Just so you know, my attitude towards a 3 year old that legitimately enjoyed inflicting pain on others does NOT stink. When you've had a bruise that big that lasts as long as the one I had did (over a MONTH) for the same reason, then you can put your opinion out there. (Especially when the child 100% KNOWS BETTER.) Until then, don't.

As someone with 30+ years experience with children (special needs children included), as well as multiple certifications and college degrees in childcare and education (who continues to further my education regularly with classes and conferences/seminars), I can assure you that I know what I'm talking about, and that I was not wrong in my actions, especially since I did not retaliate in any way except to have MY TA take the girl to the director. The director is the one that decided how to handle it from there on, not me. I didn't even give a recommendation, other than to keep her out of my classroom. The girl's parents had been warned that if the biting kept up, she would not be allowed at the center anymore. The only reason she wasn't kicked out when she bit me was because I was a teacher, and I didn't push the issue. She was kicked out after her next biting incident, when she left a similar bruise on a barely two year old child, then laughed as he cried and was completely inconsolable for almost an hour (because it HURT). When I say she was kicked out, I mean that her parents were told they had 1 hour to come get her and not bring her back (as I said before, this wasn't her first incident), otherwise CPS would get involved due to her violent tendencies. FYI, the little boy's parents were FURIOUS at the girl and her parents. Mama went from a super sweet and kind person to a mother lion as soon as she saw it, which took about 2.5 seconds once she walked in the center door and saw her baby. Pretty sure she had some choice words to say to the girl's parents, possibly even hands to throw, and I can't say I blame her. Also, she didn't give two shts that the biter was autistic. All she cared about was her baby, and the giant bruise that he now had.

To put it bluntly, autism is NOT an excuse to let your child do whatever they want. They aren't stupid, not by any means. They can learn right from wrong. They can learn not to be violent towards other people. This whole mindset of "Oh, they're autistic. It's ok, they don't know any better," isn't helping these kids in the slightest, it's actually hurting them.