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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Quran School Incident

318 replies

Everanewbie · 28/02/2023 13:05

The reaction to this non-incident is shameful. We're effectively charging this poor autistic boy with blasphemy and his mother is begging for his life.

OP posts:
Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:05

UdoU · 28/02/2023 15:00

So that means you can treat all Muslims like shit? Righttttttt.

Islamophobia is also racism.

Precisely, islamaphobia is intrinsically tied up with the fear of ‘the big scary (often hypersexual) brown man’. White Muslims are racialised as non White, i know this from my many many white Muslim friends, who have people congratulate them on how good their English is or grill them on where their parents are from’. Islam is viewed as a brown person/ Arab/ a religion of the Other. Islamaphobia is routed in racism and to pretend otherwise is well outrageous

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:06

@Lesschubtolove well I totally agree that a lunchtime detention should have been an end to it!

I don’t agree that automatic respect should be conferred by everyone (presumably by legal enforcement means, ultimately?) on certain holy texts. There is some absolute comical nonsense in the Old Testament of the Bible…some of it is rather homophobic and sexist to boot. English jurisprudence (and I have no clue about Scotland) evolved way beyond the point at which the law would step in to punish those who “disrespected” religion a hundred years ago and I am hugely grateful. Saying that religion shouldn’t be mocked is an utterly retrograde step. You have the choice not to (say) watch the Life of Brian, but you don’t get to impose that choice on others.

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:08

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:05

Precisely, islamaphobia is intrinsically tied up with the fear of ‘the big scary (often hypersexual) brown man’. White Muslims are racialised as non White, i know this from my many many white Muslim friends, who have people congratulate them on how good their English is or grill them on where their parents are from’. Islam is viewed as a brown person/ Arab/ a religion of the Other. Islamaphobia is routed in racism and to pretend otherwise is well outrageous

What other religion do people send death threats over perceived disrespect and blasphemy ?

Comefromaway · 28/02/2023 15:08

An autistic child is likely to be desperate to fit in, and not have an understanding of what the implications are. They often see things in black and white and mimic the actions of others.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:09

Mynewname2023 · 28/02/2023 15:04

Can you find a similar example from any other religion??

Yes, numerous, there a numerous Christian fundamentalist groups particularly in the states that are often triggered by a lot of things, most recently abortion.

in India there were Muslims that were killed for selling beef

there are nutters in every walk of life, it’s not just Muslims

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:09

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:09

Yes, numerous, there a numerous Christian fundamentalist groups particularly in the states that are often triggered by a lot of things, most recently abortion.

in India there were Muslims that were killed for selling beef

there are nutters in every walk of life, it’s not just Muslims

In the UK?

Comefromaway · 28/02/2023 15:10

You have the choice not to (say) watch the Life of Brian, but you don’t get to impose that choice on others.

Totally.

The Mormons had the right reaction, they advertise in the programme of The Book of Mormon, they don't issue death threats to the writers or actors. (in the show a Book of Mormon gets shoved up a characters backside)

Surplus2requirements · 28/02/2023 15:11

The far right are all over this, bigging up death threats, extreme punishment, begging for her sons life to push their agenda.

Islamic extremists will be as well...the book was burnt and destroyed to push their agenda.

Of course it makes sense for parents, police, the school and other community leaders to get together to establish a little reality and calm.

Sqqueeeeeeee · 28/02/2023 15:11

Comefromaway · 28/02/2023 14:55

In all of those examples the person is damaging something that does not belong to them.

If I owned a rare Beatles Master record and damaged it on purpose then it would be no-one else's business.

The book belonged to the boy. He was free to do to it as he wished.

In all of those examples the person is damaging something that does not belong to them.

Urm…no? No they don’t. Where did you invent that detail?

If you owned and damaged a rare Beatles album on purpose then people would find that offensive, unnecessary and insightful. It’s dickish behaviour.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:12

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:06

@Lesschubtolove well I totally agree that a lunchtime detention should have been an end to it!

I don’t agree that automatic respect should be conferred by everyone (presumably by legal enforcement means, ultimately?) on certain holy texts. There is some absolute comical nonsense in the Old Testament of the Bible…some of it is rather homophobic and sexist to boot. English jurisprudence (and I have no clue about Scotland) evolved way beyond the point at which the law would step in to punish those who “disrespected” religion a hundred years ago and I am hugely grateful. Saying that religion shouldn’t be mocked is an utterly retrograde step. You have the choice not to (say) watch the Life of Brian, but you don’t get to impose that choice on others.

but i think the motivation behind the humour has to be called into question, whether it’s satire like the life of Brian or depiciting a religious prophet as a paedophile- two very clear and distinct motivations

(ignore any spelling mistakes, my phone has gone crazy and I’m about to flush it in rage lol)

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:14

If God is all knowing and powerful they do not need puny humans to defend them from being offended.

Quveas · 28/02/2023 15:14

Overthinkingnotdrinking · 28/02/2023 14:25

An autistic child accidentally smudged a copy of the quaran that a Muslim child brought into school. Death threats have been issued, the children have been suspended and the police have been involved. But mumsnetters will be saying this is all perfectly fine.

Can you imagine the uproar if Muslim children were questioned by the police and given death threats, if this had happened to the bible. No you wouldn’t as it would not happen. We are bringing back blasphemy laws for one particular group in society and it’s hair trigger sensitivity.

Death threats are never ok. Death threats over an accident, towards children over a smudged book.

You see that's the issue. It's all made up - like your post! No Muslim child brought the Quran to school. A non-Muslim child was dared by three others to to bring it to school where they proceeded to treat it with disrespect. There is no evidence of any death threats and I doubt the police would consider it not worthy of attention if there were. It was not an accident. It was deliberate, and done by a group of four secondary aged children who damned well knew that they were treating someones holy book disrespectfully - because it wouldn't have been a "dare" if they didn't.

FFS I knew that manhandling a holy book was disrespectful when I was in PRIMARY school, never mind a teenager in secondary school. And that was in the 1960's. So lets not do all this faux concern on the thread about blasphemy laws and call this out as it is - racism and islamophobia. If these young people didn't know that disrespecting someone's holy book is wrong in this day and age, then I am more bothered about the lack of education in the school than their suspension.

And while we are at it, lets not assume that children with autism are stupid or incapable either - the patronising tone here suggest that it's all a storm in a teacup if the child had autism, because "obviously" he wouldn't understand what he was doing. Bullshit.

OhmygodDont · 28/02/2023 15:15

I actually remember a load of year 6 boys playing football with the bibles we were all given for free. Don’t actually recall anyone getting into trouble other than a well that’s a waste of nice books isn’t it.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:16

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:09

In the UK?

Catholics pray outside abortion clinics here, i find that abhorrent.

and there are honour killings for British Hindus and Sikhs too.

there are right wing fundamentalist groups in the uk

the problem is that one key board warrior, who likely is just a troll in his parents garage sending a death threat or maybe even a bit, gets held up as proof of the ‘Muslim problem’

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:16

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:12

but i think the motivation behind the humour has to be called into question, whether it’s satire like the life of Brian or depiciting a religious prophet as a paedophile- two very clear and distinct motivations

(ignore any spelling mistakes, my phone has gone crazy and I’m about to flush it in rage lol)

But in some hadith it does say he married a 6 year old and consummated at 9. That's not false , If you feel confident in your beliefs and religion , you don't need to impose your views on others or send death threats.

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:16

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to compare a rare masterpiece with a mass-produced in multiple languages text.

I also wouldn’t give a monkeys if you drew a ‘tache on one of millions of copies of the Mona Lisa. That seems a more realistic comparison.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:17

Quveas · 28/02/2023 15:14

You see that's the issue. It's all made up - like your post! No Muslim child brought the Quran to school. A non-Muslim child was dared by three others to to bring it to school where they proceeded to treat it with disrespect. There is no evidence of any death threats and I doubt the police would consider it not worthy of attention if there were. It was not an accident. It was deliberate, and done by a group of four secondary aged children who damned well knew that they were treating someones holy book disrespectfully - because it wouldn't have been a "dare" if they didn't.

FFS I knew that manhandling a holy book was disrespectful when I was in PRIMARY school, never mind a teenager in secondary school. And that was in the 1960's. So lets not do all this faux concern on the thread about blasphemy laws and call this out as it is - racism and islamophobia. If these young people didn't know that disrespecting someone's holy book is wrong in this day and age, then I am more bothered about the lack of education in the school than their suspension.

And while we are at it, lets not assume that children with autism are stupid or incapable either - the patronising tone here suggest that it's all a storm in a teacup if the child had autism, because "obviously" he wouldn't understand what he was doing. Bullshit.

Yes^ i like you!

Precipice · 28/02/2023 15:19

Sqqueeeeeeee · 28/02/2023 14:41

I don't buy the faux-ignorance of people on these threads. Everyone with a brain cell knows why it's unacceptable.

  • I have no interest in art. If I damaged a Picasso painting on purpose then people would be offended and, despite no interest in art, I understand why.
  • I have no interest in the Beatles. If someone damaged a Beatles master record on purpose then people would be offended and, despite no interest in the Beatles, I would understand why.
  • I have no interest in football. If someone damaged the 1966 World Cup Final ball on purpose, people would be offended and, despite no interest in football, I would understand why.
  • I have no interest in Jane Austen. If someone damaged a Jane Austen manuscript on purpose then people would be offended and, despite no interest in Jane Austen, I would understand why.
It's not difficult to understand that sometimes things matter to other people even if they don't matter to you. Five year olds understand that concept. It's unacceptable to damage things that are significant to other people just because you don't care about them and, frankly, more often because they matter to other people but not to you. I don't believe anyone here genuinely doesn't understand that concept - you're not fooling anyone.

But in all of these examples, damage and destruction is being done to the original 'master' version of the work. Not to any reproduction or reprint.

If someone damaged the original Picasso work or the Jane Austen manuscript, they're destroying something that is broadly considered to have a historical value. Criticism of its destruction would be centred around destroying the original work created by an artist deemed to be great. In your comparison, this would be like destroying a historical version of the Quran, like the fragments of the 7th century parchments (Birmingham Quran) or similar very old versions.

If someone bought a Picasso print or a Jane Austen paperback and damaged that, nobody would care. If you want to buy a Picasso print and cut it up, nobody will stop you. People would not be offended if you caused minor damage to a random edition of Pride and Prejudice. They might find this an objectionable way to behave and think that you shouldn't damage books in this fashion, but no outrage would be merited on the reason of it being a work by Jane Austen rather than any random paperback novel.

If someone cut up their Beatles CD, again, no problem. What you own, you can destroy. This applies to all normal belongings: the works you name are typically part of historical collections. It would be objectionable if a museum holding Austen's manuscript destroyed it, because we consider museums to be custodians. If someone privately had an Old Master and destroyed that, it might cause criticism on the basis of destruction of something considered to have a historical value, but there could be no legal or disciplinary consequences.

Surplus2requirements · 28/02/2023 15:20

Comefromaway · 28/02/2023 15:10

You have the choice not to (say) watch the Life of Brian, but you don’t get to impose that choice on others.

Totally.

The Mormons had the right reaction, they advertise in the programme of The Book of Mormon, they don't issue death threats to the writers or actors. (in the show a Book of Mormon gets shoved up a characters backside)

Most cinemas refused to show The Life Of Brian when it was released because Christian groups threatened blockades.

It was rated AA (14) but the independent cinemas that did show it rated it as X (18)

I was 15 and my choice to watch it was taken away by others.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:21

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:16

But in some hadith it does say he married a 6 year old and consummated at 9. That's not false , If you feel confident in your beliefs and religion , you don't need to impose your views on others or send death threats.

But that’s actually a hugely debated issue, firstly there is a belief that she was 16 and 19 not 6 and 9

but regardless until the 20th century that has never been a point of contention of critics of Islam because it was so common place in communities of the time, it’s something in Arabic defined as ‘Urf a custom of the people. Christian and Jewish criticism of the time (7th c ad) never mentioned Aisha’s age or supposed age as it was common place in their community also. Puberty was a sign of readiness for marriage, whenever that occurred. The huge problem is when people directly transplant that onto the present day.

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:22

@Lesschubtolove it is genuinely challenging to apply a law according to people’s motivation - it’s subjective, lacks clarity and is ripe for abuse. All the things a law shouldn’t be.

The last person punished for blasphemy was (iirc) at the beginning of the last century. Why on earth would we want to reverse ferret and undo a century of far bigger brains than ours deciding it had no place in our society?

Lets accept that provocative little shits looking for a reaction will always be among us, but FGS let’s try and be proportionate as well!

TallulahBetty · 28/02/2023 15:23

UdoU · 28/02/2023 15:00

So that means you can treat all Muslims like shit? Righttttttt.

Islamophobia is also racism.

You got THAT from what I said? LOL

Fifi0102 · 28/02/2023 15:23

Quveas · 28/02/2023 15:14

You see that's the issue. It's all made up - like your post! No Muslim child brought the Quran to school. A non-Muslim child was dared by three others to to bring it to school where they proceeded to treat it with disrespect. There is no evidence of any death threats and I doubt the police would consider it not worthy of attention if there were. It was not an accident. It was deliberate, and done by a group of four secondary aged children who damned well knew that they were treating someones holy book disrespectfully - because it wouldn't have been a "dare" if they didn't.

FFS I knew that manhandling a holy book was disrespectful when I was in PRIMARY school, never mind a teenager in secondary school. And that was in the 1960's. So lets not do all this faux concern on the thread about blasphemy laws and call this out as it is - racism and islamophobia. If these young people didn't know that disrespecting someone's holy book is wrong in this day and age, then I am more bothered about the lack of education in the school than their suspension.

And while we are at it, lets not assume that children with autism are stupid or incapable either - the patronising tone here suggest that it's all a storm in a teacup if the child had autism, because "obviously" he wouldn't understand what he was doing. Bullshit.

I was quite a strict Christian as a teenager not so much anymore a friend of mine started tearing out pages of the bible to use as roach in a roll up cigarette. I was mildly offended and said so I didn't feel the need to phone the police or send death threats. She didn't believe and that's fine it didn't personally affect my faith.

I just don't get why people get so angry , you cannot force others to respect and believe or you are imposing blasphemy laws.

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:25

Most cinemas refused to show The Life Of Brian when it was released because Christian groups threatened blockades

That is appalling. I was introduced to it by a Jewish friend, who laughed his head off at the scene when Brian explains why he can’t possibly be a Roman. I felt really uncomfortable watching it with him as a teen, I think that is (partially) the point.

Lesschubtolove · 28/02/2023 15:25

Vinvertebrate · 28/02/2023 15:22

@Lesschubtolove it is genuinely challenging to apply a law according to people’s motivation - it’s subjective, lacks clarity and is ripe for abuse. All the things a law shouldn’t be.

The last person punished for blasphemy was (iirc) at the beginning of the last century. Why on earth would we want to reverse ferret and undo a century of far bigger brains than ours deciding it had no place in our society?

Lets accept that provocative little shits looking for a reaction will always be among us, but FGS let’s try and be proportionate as well!

question: who is bringing in blasphemy laws? Especially for a religion that isn’t this country’s state religion?

you get no Muslims really want this right?

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