How do you not get offended by school cliques?

[Purpleicing]

Could do with some advice to stop my confidence being more battered

4 years into school - son now year 3 - a once friendly group of mums in the class has developed into "the trendy confident ones" and "the rest of us"

The trendy ones not only invite each others children to the parties (at the exclusion of the children of the poor, the fat, the old, or the anxious), but have spend weekends on a 3 day partying spree - this weekend a bottomless brunch at a restaurant, one house party, and one day out at theme park with kids, all over social media

This in itself is just normal life I know, but what has riled me is that it doesn't stop them using the less trendy ones who don't get invited to play.

Specifically, we have a park holiday home which I have let a few people use for nothing or v little in past when everyone was more friendly across the whole class (think £20 for a long weekend) . Whole set of them asking to use it this summer already.

Other mums outside the clique I know do their fair share of help with after school pick ups and childcare

I'm also in an "approved profession" job and three times this week people have asked me for either legal advice or can you approve the passports (on my fifth lot of passport approval or 'can you sign my mortgage application' this month!)

My confidence is already battered, aibu to think jog on and find someone else to sign your bloody passports?

@Treetopviews

I’d go so far as to say the people in the first category are the ones making friends. The people in the latter are the ones struggling to do so.

That may be true, and it may be that a lot of these people find that the experience is triggering uncomfortable memories of having been "excluded" when they were children. Which is obviously difficult and deserves compassion.

But the hard truth of the matter is that as an adult in charge of a child, you have a responsibility not to allow your hangups about what happened to you as a child not to prevent your children learning to form their own friendships and fight their own battles. If you project everything as a battle against the "school cliques" you're shoring up a whole heap of trouble for your own children.

Hear hear. I didn’t have good role models for friendship growing up (both parents are timid and socially awkward and passed on some very unhelpful relationship scripts) and didn’t have an easy time friendship-wise at school for various reasons, though I started to make good, lasting friendships at university, despite moving around a lot in my adult life — apart from one lonely stint in a village where I really wasn’t a good match locally.

BUT it’s important for DS to see his parents model good, sustaining, enjoyable friendships, not pass him on lingering hang ups from my own schooldays. I’m close to three parents of DS’s friends, and see a lot of them independently of our children, although one child has now moved school, go hillwalking with two dads, and also go for an occasional night out with a larger, looser group of the mothers of some of his classmates, about ten women. We include fat, thin, and exercise junkies, rich, poor and in between, SAHPs and working parents, and people who have lots of other friends and people with fewer.

I don’t think viewing the friendship world through the lens of your own childhood trauma is a happy or healthy choice.

@Commah

Are people really excluding you or do you just not get along with them?

I agree with @Thepeopleversuswork and @Treetopviews that some people view friendship negatively. Frankly, some people see friendship as something you endure in order not to be lonely. Unsurprisingly, it’s incredibly un-fun to be on the other end of these obligation based “friendships” and it’s not surprising that eventually people peel away to find someone they can actually relax and enjoy life with.

This is what interests me about this whole discussion. People seem to fall into two distinct camps: those who see forming friendship as life-affirming and positive and those who regard it as hostile and defensive.

Yes, absolutely this.

These threads always go the same way. And it’s always (God, this is going to sound harsh and/or patronising, whichever way I say it, I am sorry) quite obvious why the people who seem to regard friendships as hostile and defensive struggle so much.

Words and phrases like 'dreadful people'.

'Awful / bitchy women / cows'.

'Why would you want to be friends with such horrible people?'

'I'm just glad they don't invite me, because then I'd have to think of an excuse'

'The 'sensible' ones (the Dads, apparently) avoid the school gate chat (not where I live - it would appear the Dads are as silly as the Mums). Be more Dad'.

The people who say and/or think these things genuinely wonder why people are not rushing to include them with open arms.

Meanwhile, the people who view friendships as life affirming and positive don't really have to do much to be included, as they're so open to chat, to friendship, to the two-way street that's needed to move an acquaintance on to a friendship.

There is nothing 'sensible' about avoiding school gate chat and going on your phone, to someone who views friendship as positive snd life-affirming, and who is always looking to add new people to their life.

All of this.

I must say, my daughter is now at her third school and I have never ever had any problems with any of the school parents. I honestly don't understand how people can create so much drama over school drop-offs/pick-ups. All the parents I have ever met have been totally ordinary normal people.

Absolutely.

i think it’s also sadly a fear of rejection and a lack of self confidence. I see a lot of “they don’t invite or include me” but seldom do I see,” I invite them for coffee, drinks, go chat to them and join them etc.” it’s so often one way. I’m over here. It’s your job to come invite me. Even making an effort one to one doesn’t happen.

But more than that, even if you do reach out to someone, they don’t need to be your mate. People gel in different ways. I meet folks who I immediately get on well with. I meet others where it was forced and polite and no I’d not wish to hang out with them. I just didn’t gel with them. And other people will feel the same about me.

that’s just how it works. None of us are entitled to someone’s time. All of us are entitled to make and conduct friendships.

This is what interests me about this whole discussion. People seem to fall into two distinct camps: those who see forming friendship as life-affirming and positive and those who regard it as hostile and defensive.There seems to be this strong school of thought running through a lot of this thread that for a woman to form a friendship with another woman via school is a selfish act which is a calculated attempt to exclude other women and their children
I'm not sure it's quite as black and white as that, at least not the first group who view friendship forming as life affirming.

There's probably quite a lot of us who are happy to chat to people in general and happy to click with a couple, but don't have a big focus on social groups. I know a lot of people who are very friendly and have quite a lot of acquaintances alongside their 'proper' friendship. They'd happily do favours for people, are generally likeable and wouldn't feel threatened by other mums having a friendship group.

I think there's definitely a group of people who view all adult interactions through their childhood experiences and chips on their shoulders though. It's like they haven't left the playground and think other adults are out to get them when in reality most adults are too busy spinning the plates of life to give much thought to whether a random mum at the gate will be annoyed by a Facebook post.

You say ‘it’s not that black and white’, but you’ve basically just described the two groups that the pp was referring to.

You say ‘it’s not that black and white’, but you’ve basically just described the two groups that the pp was referring to.
Not really because I don't think it's a case of:
Group 1: people who find friendships life affirming
Group 2: people who are bitter and view other people's friendships as selfish

I think there's a lot of us in the middle who are quite happy to be friendly, get on with who we get on with, but wouldn't say this is a big deal to us or a high priority.

Personally I'd not say having friends at the gate is life affirming or a high priority. I don't have a large mum group to talk to at pick up, but I'm happy to chat to people. If there was a whatsapp for a club and someone needed help, I'd help if I could. Others would probably do the same for me even though we aren't friends and the only thing we have in common is a club and similar age children. I have my friends from different parts of life and the friendships other mums have doesn't really cross my mind particularly.

My neighbour has a DD the same age as my DS. The drama she describes is unbelievable. Endless fallings out amongst the mums, Whatsapp groups being opened then closed, constant complaints to the school. I literally get none of that in our class.
Having said all that, the rugby dads in our year I would say are cliquey. They all shout to each other over your head at matches, only clap for the favoured kids and are generally absolute knobs. I try to ignore but they are annoying. That's when it goes from being a group of friends to a clique I'd say.

But the PP wasn’t talking about friendships at the school gate, per se. No mention of that at all, when she drew her distinction.

She was just talking about friendship in general.

So yes, I do think people fall into one of those two camps. Happy to be open to friendship - or inherently hostile / questioning of it.

SomersetONeil
I took it in the context of the thread being school.
I can see why you see mine and that posters groups as similar though.

For me, not being a social butterfly, I found the friendships as life affirming as something so not very me, but would still consider myself friendly and open to getting on with people. It's so interesting how we all view social situations differently.

I think when folks see it as “hostile” it’s something hostile to them, reading the comments on this thread it reads like some people think others are friends just to spite them, to exclude them. That they are being selfish.

and I think that’s where it’s hard, because the reality is the person feeling this generally isn’t on the other people’s radar like that. There is no spite, no exclusion, no selfish behaviour. They don’t know they are lonely, resentful or envious. They don’t know rhey are stalking their social media, watching what they do. The friends just assume everyone else is getting on with their lives.

i Think for some people, it’s just really hard. And seeing people having what you want, friendships, fun, social life, social acceptance, it makes it all that much harder.

I get what you’re saying

Are you coming back OP? Quite rude not to when people have taken the trouble to offer their thoughts.

I’m sorry but you need to stop giving this any thought. You’re a professional woman with children, not a school girl! Make friends of your own, not in the playground. Tbh as a teacher I hate seeing this - so many kids in forced friendships because Mum is mates with their mates Mum! Or kids fall out then the Mum falls out with the other Mum and get over involved!

Haven't rtft.
I never got offended, because it never occurred to me to think of them as cliques. They are friendship groups. The people in them have no obligation to include people who aren't their friends in any activity etc. Why would they?

Yes if they try to ask favours from people who aren't their friends then they are CFs, and you should say no! But I honestly don't understand why people think everyone should embrace being friends wirh everyone at the school gates. You make friends with people you gravitate towards, people you have something in common with, just like you do in the rest of life. Fwiw I didn't really have school gate friends. Didn't bother me in the slightest- I passed the time of day with people and that was it.

Where many people see a friendship group and think nothing of it,they’ve no interest, it’s just a bog standard friendship group, others see a friendship group they aren’t part of,so they feel excluded from , so it becomes a clique to them. It’s about how they feel. Not about the group.

the ops phrasing is revealing , calling them the trendy confident ones, and then every other parent as the poor, the fat , the old, the anxious etc. trendy and confident being a desirable trait in this context, poor, fat old or anxious clearly not so much. These parents are not socially desirable to her. It’s actually offensive phrasing.

She attributed negative traits to every single mother that’s not part of this group. And only positive traits to the group. She perceives it’s not just her who is excluded, but all the kids of the other less fortunate , in her view, parents as well. Like everyone would want to be part of this, including the kids.

it’s just envy I guess, and I think the only way to deal with it, is try to make other friends, don’t look at their social media, don’t let them stay in the caravan, don’t sign passports if you don’t wish to. Although personally I’d still do the latter. Because she’s not being deliberately excluded. She’s just not part of that set.

Accusations of cliques is so unbelievably pathetic.

Women don’t have to be best buds with everyone in the playground just because they’re female and a parent.

After a few years most women have found their tribe. I have school mum friends, I don’t talk to anyone else because I have nothing to say to them. I actually hang out with these friends outside of school as well. Should I be asking the whole class every time I go for a coffee with my mate?

If you wanna join in, then go join in but don’t stand around in a sulk waiting to be ‘picked’ like a child in PE.

@LolaSmiles

There's probably quite a lot of us who are happy to chat to people in general and happy to click with a couple, but don't have a big focus on social groups.

This is true: not everyone is an extrovert or someone who enjoys being part of friendship groups. Plenty of people don’t have the time or the bandwidth for school friendships.

But I am talking about the prospect of at least being open to friendships. Some people seem to regard any social interaction outside of their immediate family with terror and deep suspicion and assume that people who do form friendships at school do so purely for political purposes.

I saw this in a minor way earlier on this thread when a poster who I challenged said to me she didn’t think she would like me and would only tolerate me if her child got on with my child. Without knowing the first thing about me. There was such a meanness and cynicism about her mindset it was quite striking.

I find it very sad that so many people regard making friends as at best a chore to be done through gritted teeth for the sake of their kids and at worst an act of calculated self interest. Really depressing. I wonder if men feel like this too or if it’s just women?

Honestly, I think the idea that making friends is a horrifying chore or a political act of canny self-interest is one that is over-represented on Mn, which has a very high proportion of people who say they are socially anxious, regard social situations with fear and stress, don’t like answering their doors or doing the school run, regard friendships with a very jaundiced eye as unnecessary ‘drama’, and yet often say they’re lonely or friendless.

I’m not usually one for the ‘only on Mn’ pov, but perhaps because it’s a big, anonymous women-dominated forum with frequent posts about loneliness, ‘cliques’, how to make friends as an adult, it’s a necessary outlet for many who don’t have many other forms of communication with others. It’s probably not surprising one doesn’t meet these people in RL, because by definition they’re not out there talking about their worldview.

I feel for the lonely, but admittedly the cynicism about friendships is depressing, and (despite having been a socially-isolated child), I simply don’t recognise the world of friendships as the ‘cliques’,, users, drama queens, queen bees, acolytes, and group power plays that are so often described on here.

Me neither! Made me fear I am unwittingly the clique! Utterly oblivious!

Excellent post Dzogchen

You giving it much thought...they just friends.... On school run I smile hello to anyone who smiles at me. At pick up I talk about the weather and leave to get DD home. It's school.

@Dzogchen

I’m not usually one for the ‘only on Mn’ pov, but perhaps because it’s a big, anonymous women-dominated forum with frequent posts about loneliness, ‘cliques’, how to make friends as an adult, it’s a necessary outlet for many who don’t have many other forms of communication with others.

You're spot on with this. I saw a huge amount of this during the pandemic, masses of posts from people basically saying how relieved they were that lockdown gave them an excuse never to see anyone, ever. People offloading about how much they hated other people and never wanted to see anyone again outside "my little family" etc.

At one level its understandable that people who struggle with social events felt some relief at being able to step off the social treadmill for bit, but also profoundly worrying that so many people actively dislike having any contact at all with other human beings apart from the ones they are related to. It was often talked about on here as a good and liberating thing, but let's call a spade a spade: this is pathological. Never wanting to see or interact with other people is not a good thing.

I think this tendency to assume that all playground social activity is based on sinister cabals of "trendy" or "confident" women ganging up on those with anxiety comes from a similar place: it's the idea that other people are out to get you in some way and the less you and your children have to do with them, the better.

I think we have to ask ourselves a bigger question about why women in particular are suspicious of the idea of friendships outside the family and assume that other women who make friends are "bitches" or "cliques" or deliberately setting out to exclude their children. Is it connected with a historical impetus to shrink your social circle once you are married? Is it to do with the wider anxiety that capitalism brings people? I don't know.

I think a lot of women have been their own worst enemies in some ways because they are very quick to dump friends when they get married and have kids and shrink their own networks to revolve around their families, so the lose the "muscle" of making friends. Then one day they wake up and realise they are bored and isolated or that their husband doesn't treat them so well any more and have lost the knack of getting on with other women, just when they really need the support of other women. So when they see women at school making friends they are envious and attribute the worst motives to them.

I think its worrying and negative and we should call it out when we see it. This obsession with cliques is a really bad thing to pass on to your kids. If you find you are going down this mental rabbit hole a lot when you're at school you really need to check your own motives, think about why you are so suspicious of other people making friends and, if you need it, get help. But stop being unpleasant about other women making friends.