Childfree people ranting about parents

[the7Vabo]

Came across a thread on another site full of people ranting about children entitled “parents not everything is about you.” I get it to a point, as a parent I think society has become somewhat a overly child-centred. I assume however that the odd stories you see about parents demanding people give up train seats for ten year olds are just that, the odd story of unreasonable behaviour that people in all groups can be guilty of.

The extent of the comments on that thread baffled me. Full of I’m so glad I don’t have children because X, Y. It’s one thing to want to be child free which to me is a perfectly valid life choice, but I’m baffled by the level of bitching about parents & children. If someone wants to be child free why can’t they simply be child free & accept that others didn’t make that choice instead of ranting about how parents are always on at them about how fulfilled they are while at the same time ranting about how terrible it would be to have kids.

yes because we have choice in the immune system, personality, disability etc. of the children we have

If you have a child, you're opting to take that chance.

I didn't claim it was an altruistic effort.

The point is that having children is more effort than not having them.

🙄

Arguing about not being defective human takes loads of effort in our lives

Yeh but not the same amount as growing, giving birth, and raising a whole other human being or two.

You are the only one comparing the effort of looking after a sick child with the effort of not getting pregnant

The point was you said remaining childfree was very little effort, which is basically rubbish because otherwise there wouldn't be multiple threads a day on MN with people referencing accidental pregnancies

That doesn't mean we are comparing the effort of not getting pregnant with that of a sick child, you are the only one who decided that was what people were talking about

But if staying childfree was so easy please explain the 200,00+ abortions in the UK each year

This thread is really depressing. As always, women without children (by choice or not) have to justify their choices. They get judged, pitied and submitted to countless intrusive and disturbing questions. Then, of course, they never know true love, tiredness or effort. They are just selfish and self-centered. They should suck it up and tolerate the humiliating comments thrown at them, in this thread included.

Eh? You've gone from altruism to something that doesn't make sense.

Well done on bringing abortion into the topic 🙄 that is a massively complicated issue, people have abortions for all sorts of reasons, not just because they fell pregnant by accident.

Thankfully it is relatively easy to access abortion in this country, so women have a choice.

Yeh but not the same amount as growing, giving birth, and raising a whole other human being or two.

Here's your medal 🏅

This doesn't really work though, because they were once without children, so can gauge way better what a life without children would look and feel like, than a person who doesn't have children trying to do same about a person with children.

You didn’t bother reading the whole post they were quoting, then.

Life is a lot harder after having children than before having children. I don't think it's controversial that children are bloody hard work. This is one of many very valid reasons to choose not to have children and something that people child free by choice say not infrequently. It's not an insult just because it is said by a parent. Previous poster didn't claim that it made parents superior to those who are not parents, unless I missed something. There seems to be a lot of reaction here as though that is what they said, which I assume is based on previous negative experiences?

Really sorry about people's previous horrible experiences with parents being rude toward them about being child free, but not all parents are like, responsible for those comments. It's not like all parents are the same person or have the same view.

The whole “which is harder” is the sibling to “who is tireder” argument which we dealt with about 26 pages ago.

I don’t care that you think your life is harder than mine because you had a child or two. I have no sympathy whatsoever - it’s not news that children are expensive, tiring and hard work. Presumably you did it for a reason.

(And in any case you can’t generalise - one parent might have an easier time with two high incomes, lots of family support, the ability to SAH, than a childfree single person living pay check to pay check working two jobs and looking after elderly parents.)

God, this thread. It really does reveal that parenthood removes some people’s ability to empathise with anyone other than other parents.

@Norwen Do you notice how not one single childless or childfree poster has argued on this entire thread that not having children is harder than having them, but roughly sixty five billion parents have been on incessantly going on about how having kids makes you the most tired and that life much harder when you’re a parent than before you’re a parent?

It’s the endless competing. The incessant unrelenting need that parents have to be The Most Put Upon, the Most Exhausted, the Most Hardworking. All the rest of us are trying to do is point out that people without kids also work hard and are also tired.

That’s why people are taking issue with the comments.

If you’re not like that, well done, have a medal. But there are plenty who are.

Again, I didn't say that people with children had harder lives than people without. It's just that the same life with children added to it becomes harder. This isn't intended as an attack. If I had said that getting cancer makes life harder, I wouldn't be attacking people who have never had cancer. If I said that competing in the Olympics was hard, I wouldn't be attacking people who have never completed in the Olympics. If I said that owning a Border Collie was harder than not owning a Border Collie, I wouldn't be attacking people that don't own a Border Collie.

What I'm trying to explain, is that it's very difficult to participate meaningfully in a discussion / conversation when neutral comments are taken to be attacks. When you are trying to put forward a point, and someone then aggressively responds to a strawman. Take up the point against "you don't know what tiredness is unless you have children" with somebody whose actually said it, not with anybody else who happens to be a parent and states that parenting is difficult. I do understand there are reasons for why this happens and I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

😂 you literally aren't able to empathise with some telling you what life is like with children.

It's "well what did you expect? Crack on and stop whinging will you. I understand me please and how difficult my life is having to defend my childfree status - it's so much tougher than actually having children you know"

🙄

@Norwen But what is the point in telling us that having kids is hard work? That’s obvious to literally anyone with a brain. So obvious it doesn’t need saying. As you said, those who are childfree may have decided to be so on that very basis, so don’t need telling. Why is it that parents feel the need to tell us?

That’s why it isn’t a neutral comment. The purpose of it isn’t to impart some kind of groundbreaking wisdom, it’s to remind those of us without kids that our lives are easier than yours. There is literally no other reason to make the point.

@waltzingmattie I can empathise perfectly well with parents. I’m less good with martyrs.

For example was your statement "It really does reveal that parenthood removes some people’s ability to empathise with anyone other than other parents" directed me? I'm genuinely not sure.

"If you're not like that, have a medal" I read as quite sarcastic and rude. I know that's not unusual on the internet but I find it quite unhelpful. It makes it much harder for me to connect to you as another person. I appreciate you are frustrated at some things which have been said by other people. I would just ask everyone not to take out their frustrations about things that people have said, on people who haven't said them!

I am having a whimsy that in another thread about cyclists vs cars (or anything else for that matter, dogs vs cats, vegan vs staunch carnivore) that the very same people from this thread who view themselves as falling into such opposing groups and speak to each other in such a way could split in a completely different way and allies become enemies (and visa versa)😜

@Norwen No, that was directed at @waltzingmattie.

It was sarcastic and I apologise for being rude. You can imagine, though, that after 39 pages (I’ve been here since the start), I’m pretty lacking in patience. I’ll leave it there and not respond further to you if that works better.

Childfree
But we don't want children because they are hard work, we don't think we would be a good parent, we like our life as it is

Parents
If you don't have children you will never know true love
Childfree women are self centred
You might change your mind
Children are the future you are selfish not to have one
Who will look after you in old age

Also parents
Having a child is so hard
you don't understand what tiredness is
You don't understand how much hard work it is
Raising a child is far harder than anything you would do

thread shocker childfree people actually knew what they were talking about all along.

I think it is better to respond to what someone has actually said, rather than make assumptions about their intentions or "hidden arguments" and react to those. Otherwise you are having an argument with a straw man, a phantom constructed from your previous negative experiences. This thread originated with someone exploring the reasons why some groups of people identifying as child free online seem to be interested in criticising parents and parenthood. I think that an observation about someone making a neutral and true comment about parenting children being hard, and it immediately being taken as an attack with aggressive responses from several people to be really relevant to that theme. I don't think that it's unique to the parents vs child free struggle(!) it just seems to be something people do, put themselves in camps. It crushes authentic conversation.

Is this just another variation of that dumb "you don't know tiredness" statement?

Yes, having children is harder than not having them. But that doesn't mean not having children means life is easy.

That wasn't even the original argument. It was about effort. As in, it takes more effort to prevent pregnancy than to let it happen (fertility issues aside). Which is true. Therefore, not getting pregnant takes more effort than getting pregnant.

Given this thread started because someone wanted to understand why childfree people had a thread agreeing they were happy they didn't have children because it's hard work etc, it's ironic that you even feel the need to come in and explain how hard having children is to the childfree people

Like they already know, that's why they (some of them) chose not to have children

If you want to explain why having children is so much hard work maybe go explain it to teenage girls who think condoms are optional. Not patronise the very women who blatantly already know this

It's like lecturing Stephen Hawking on why physics is interesting

@fitzwilliamdarcy thank you, I genuinely really appreciate that. I half don't know why I just posted, I was just really taken by those last few responses, I haven't followed the entire conversation. I have no doubt that terribly unreasonable things have been said here by parents and that must be very tiresome. Obviously parents are not saints either. And also regularly participate in strawman arguments about non parents. Is it controversial to say that broadly speaking, parents and non parents are kind of mostly the same? Certainly in terms of saintliness. Have a good night.

Cheers, @Norwen - and you’re right, far better to assume good faith than project, which I absolutely was guilty of doing. Apologies again.