Childfree people ranting about parents

[the7Vabo]

Came across a thread on another site full of people ranting about children entitled “parents not everything is about you.” I get it to a point, as a parent I think society has become somewhat a overly child-centred. I assume however that the odd stories you see about parents demanding people give up train seats for ten year olds are just that, the odd story of unreasonable behaviour that people in all groups can be guilty of.

The extent of the comments on that thread baffled me. Full of I’m so glad I don’t have children because X, Y. It’s one thing to want to be child free which to me is a perfectly valid life choice, but I’m baffled by the level of bitching about parents & children. If someone wants to be child free why can’t they simply be child free & accept that others didn’t make that choice instead of ranting about how parents are always on at them about how fulfilled they are while at the same time ranting about how terrible it would be to have kids.

@ConfusedNT @fitzwilliamdarcy

I agree with you both, that’s why I deliberately didn’t say in my post that a parent’s love for their child is unconditional. I think it is for some parents ( I would hope the majority), but certainly not for all.

I was just pointing out that love for your parents, partners, etc. really isn’t unconditional either. Perhaps it is for pets, because they’re so easy to love-they can’t emotionally hurt you for a start. Although you might feel differently if your pet physically attacked you, I don’t know.

Tbf I was going to say in my last reply that my love for my cat is probably as unconditional as it gets for me but I didn't want to open that can on worms again 😂

But I clean up her wee and poo, cuddle her at midnight if she comes in demanding cuddles, get up when I want a lie in to let her out, put up with her putting her butt in my face when I'm on zoom calls, clean up mice guts and cat sick and tolerate her stealing my seat. It's a bloody good job she's cute and fluffy!

It's also good to see when I stated that the whole point is someone who has lived an experience can compare it to life pre and post that experience, crucially has that ability to compare - as opposed to someone who has never had that experience. To not to get too attached to the "tired" example, as its the principle that stands....has inspired no consideration of the actual principle but for posters to list many high stress or medical circumstances under which they felt tired.

PP with the Everest analogy made an excellent point.

@HamBone My view is that if it exists for some parents but not others, then it could just as easily exist for some couples, friends, whatever, but not others. I don’t believe in it at all myself but it seems to me that if no type of love is universal then it should be open to everyone to say they’ve experienced, based on their experience. Not gatekept by parents (not saying you’re doing that) (also is there a past tense version of gatekeep???)

If it is possible to feel unconditional love at all then there is no reason to assume it only applies from parents towards babies. This sense of entitlement to weird things like types of love, types or tiredness etcn is exactly what the childfree lot are on about tbh.

*My point was millions and millions of parents will state they had no idea of this level of tiredness, until they had a child.

And this constant "well, I had a condition that meant I couldn't sleep, so now what!"*

@TwinsAndTiramisu I went back to your first comment on this and you said:

So for example, when literally every mother, says "you don't know real tiredness until you've had children" they are comparing themselves as a mother, to themselves when they were childfree. It's a different league (excluding medical conditions) and millions of women all saying the same thing about the same comparison before and after having a child, aren't wrong. I know that's just one small example, but I do find it irritating when a childfree person tries to accuse a parent of being patronising, or removing their validation. It's just that a parent will have experienced (as a direct result of having a child) things that a childfree person categorically hasn't

You are comparing your experience as a childfree experience to your experience as a mother, and then extrapolating that to everyone else’s experience of being tired. That’s why people are getting frustrated with you. Your last sentence - a parent has experienced things that a childfree person categorically hasn’t - is about tiredness.

You weren’t saying “I thought I was tired before but I wasn’t”. You were saying “I know tired that you don’t”. That’s why people are saying you’re invalidating them. Because you are.

Interesting thread. I have 4 grown up kids and grandkids. I would die for them.
I have a small dog I literally adore and I would rush into danger to save her no issue.

I completely understand not wanting kids it's actually easier as if you have a loved pet it's one less thing to worry about.

Only idiots would assume that a love for a child is superior to that of a loved pet for some people

Also, it’s strange that you called me saying “Is there a reason why you’re so fixated on proving that the only way a childless person can be as tired as a mum is if they have a medical condition?” a “bizarre interpretation” when you literally said…

It's a different league (excluding medical conditions)

You clearly do think the only way a person without kids can compete with a mum on tiredness is if they’re ill. That’s very weird.

Even those of us with children are child free sometimes. I had a lateish, fine-dining, very fun, lots of wine night out in London with two old girlfriends recently. Got the tube back and at 11:30 at night a young woman got on with four children and told me to give up my seat for her ten year old. I shit you not. There were plenty of empty seats, including enough seats for her to sit next to the youngest child, aged 5 or 6. When I said I didn't want to swap seats because I was comfortable where I was she went apeshit and abused me for the entire journey home. I have an eight year old and would let him sit down and stand up myself. Or both stand. Or whatever.

When I said I didn't want to change seats, one of her ripostes was 'you look 50!'. Which was a bit bizarre. Not least because I'm not far off 50, so could hardly say it wasn't true.

Sue : I think you gain weight faster before having children. It's an issue for child free women

Helen: Oh, no I think you gain weight faster after having children. It's an issue for parents.

Sue and Helen: let's discuss this.

Jenny: I have a medical condition that causes me to gain weight that is entirely out of my control.

S&H: Understood. That's medical fact and consequence. No one is saying otherwise. It's not really anything to do with pre/post child comparisons though.

Jenny: Nice, you disregard me.

S&H: We don't understand how you want us to make your medical condition part of the discussion about how we perceive things differently pre/post children. Yes, it concerns weight but it's an entirely separate thing.

Jenny: Crappy people.

I genuinely have no idea how you are linking that response to the conversation, but its late and I'm tired (ironically) so that might be on me

@TwinsAndTiramisu That example is so far away from what you originally posted that it might as well be a whole new topic.

And although i am tired I think a closer analogy with the weight gain would be:

Person A: I've put on weight and I'm really struggling to shift it

Person B: You don't know what it's like to gain weight until you are pregnant

vs

Person A: I've put on weight and I'm really struggling to shift it

Person B: Me too I'm really struggling to shift the weight I gained during pregnancy, I'm going to try intermittent fasting, have you tried it

Ohhhh I get it now I get what you are getting at

But in this case its more like

Person A: I hate it when mothers tell me 'I don't know anything about weight gain until I am pregnant'

Person B: Well on my experience you don't

Person A: As a childfree/less person I find that answer invalidates me as childless/childfree people can also put on weight

Person B: I'm not invalidating you I'm just right

Person C, D, E F and G: plus I put on weight due to these medical conditions so it's possible to gain weight without being pregnant

Person B: that's not the point stop talking about them

Person D: But some of these medical conditions cause infertility and weight gain so you are excluding childless people from a conversation about them

Person B: You are so self centred

Yes. Or…

Sue : I think you gain weight faster before having children. It's an issue for child free women

Helen: Oh, no, you don’t know this because you haven’t experienced it. I have because I have kids. You actually only gain weight after having children. It's an issue for parents. As you don’t have kids you don’t know what gaining weight looks like. Unless you have a medical condition.

Jenny: Like me?

Helen: Yes

Sue: Wow, that’s really invalidating.

Helen: Stop being so defensive, I was only talking about myself, not you.

Tiredness as a parent is brutal but not unique. Carers of older parents with altzimers for example is equally brutal. And from my experience goes on for years unlike kids who generally get easier as get older

@massifcentral Having a babysitter for a night away from the kids isn't the same as being permanently childfree or childless though?! Unless on that one night endless people told you you didn't know real love, couldn't understand what being tired is really like, told you you'd change your mind about your parenting status, called you selfish for not having kids etc. And that night lasted a few decades.
I know the thread has evolved, mostly into the age old 'you don't know tired', but to refer back to the original question, it's to do with a life long status of a life without children and how other people's reactions to that (why are we even on Mumsnet?!) can lead to a defensive stance.
I'm very happy with my own decision not to have kids. It's exactly right for me and personally I'd hate being a parent. I just wish society had reached a point where that was enough for other people and didn't come with a side order of judgement or people thinking they know what I secretly want better than I know.

Massifcentral

Why was she out with 4 young kids at 11pm. I would have pointed that out and added fuck off but then I am rude

Essentially yes.

Except my experience is not unique. I am an individual yes. With no extreme exceptional circumstances. And whilst I can't of course, speak for every person pre/post child, my experience falls into the pattern of most mothers.

The woman next door to me might feel way worse. Or better. The point is, we both changed in the same direction following parenthood.

Your last sentence - a parent has experienced things that a childfree person categorically hasn’t - is about tiredness.

No it's not. It's just stating that parents have experienced things that non parents have not. Loads of things. Good and bad.

You weren’t saying “I thought I was tired before but I wasn’t”. You were saying “I know tired that you don’t”. That’s why people are saying you’re invalidating them. Because you are.

I literally go on to say how I would now laugh at my former self thinking how I would declare I was exhausted before. I absolutely know tired that she didn't. And if another woman, childfree, and comparable to my younger self said the same, I would know how that doesn't compare to how most mothers feel once they've had a child. Why does explaining my actual lived experience make someone less valid. It's true, whether they like it or not.

If DS was complaining about the amount of revision for his GCSEs, and I told him "you wait til A Levels" does that mean I'm uber competitive and want to invalidate him and think he's got nothing to even complain about? No. It means I've done GCSES and A levels, and I know the latter is much harder. Again, true, whether he likes it or not.

Is it really a thing that people who choose not to have children are demonised/criticised?

It's bizarre. I have many childless by choice mates snd mates with kids.

Who are these wierdows who not only judge but comment it's just odd.

If your ds is struggling to revise for his GCSEs and your sole response is wait until a levels then I would think you were a shit parent to be honest

You don't seem to display much empathy or care for others, you really can only see things from your own perspective can't you

Lots of people are telling you from their lived experience being told 'you don't know because' is invalidating

But because you are so sure you are right from your lived experience you are adamant we should put up with hearing it and you know its not invalidating us even though that's our experience

Why is only your lived experience valid?

If DS was complaining about the amount of revision for his GCSEs, and I told him "you wait til A Levels" does that mean I'm uber competitive and want to invalidate him and think he's got nothing to even complain about?

Yes! You minimised his feelings. It would make him feel shit that he expressed how hard he is finding GCSEs.

Why does explaining my actual lived experience make someone less valid. It's true, whether they like it or not.

It doesn’t if you’re only comparing yourself with yourself. It does if you’re comparing yourself with another person.

But you’re not just talking about yourself. You’re saying that there is some sort of objective experience that mothers have that childless women don’t. You keep bringing up the many millions of women who experience the same thing.

If you’re just talking about yourself then they’d be irrelevant.

I’ll repeat myself - no childless woman gets defensive at someone comparing their own experience of being tired without kids to being tired with kids. We object to being told that we aren’t tired because we don’t have them. And we know the difference between those statements. We’re not stupid.

Please stop saying that childless women get offended by mothers talking about themselves and only themselves. It’s disingenuous and really doesn’t make the point you think it does.

If DS was complaining about the amount of revision for his GCSEs, and I told him "you wait til A Levels" does that mean I'm uber competitive and want to invalidate him and think he's got nothing to even complain about? No. It means I've done GCSES and A levels, and I know the latter is much harder. Again, true, whether he likes it or not.

A perfect example. You’re not saying “I found any A levels to be harder than my GCSEs”. You’re saying “A levels are harder than GCSEs because I’ve done both”.

Just like you’re saying that “mothers have more tiredness and I know because I’ve done both”, not, “I found being a mother more tiring than not”.

It would be invalidating and competitive for the exact same reason.

(And this is actually a bad example because A levels are supposed to be more challenging academically, so there’s more objective truth in this than in your point about tiredness. There is no objective universal increasing spectrum of tiredness. Unlike academic levels of achievement.)

If your ds is struggling to revise for his GCSEs and your sole response is wait until a levels then I would think you were a shit parent to be honest

Lol, sole response. No. But if DS is whining about the work at this low level, then he needs to know what's coming and knuckle down because unless he gets a handle on this, he's going to be aghast during a levels. If he was complaining that he didn't like the amount of work, he would absolutely get that reality check.

Why is only your lived experience valid?

Because if you don't have an equal lived experience, what you have is basically theory and opinion.

You may have a lived experience of bungee jumping. It may have scared the bejesus out of you. By saying "you dont know fear until you've bungee jumped", doesn't mean you're suddenly invalidating every time I've ever felt scared.

I can talk about fear in all my lived experiences. You've had all those scary experiences too. But my fear of bungee jumping is something I will never know. I can't. I've never done it.

If you said to me, it's the scariest thing you'll ever experience. How do I know otherwise? Except it's not just you. It's millions of people. All saying the same. At what point do you think, "maybe bungee jumping is the scariest thing" instead of "this is just millions of people who for no reason, say the same thing"