Childfree people ranting about parents

[the7Vabo]

Came across a thread on another site full of people ranting about children entitled “parents not everything is about you.” I get it to a point, as a parent I think society has become somewhat a overly child-centred. I assume however that the odd stories you see about parents demanding people give up train seats for ten year olds are just that, the odd story of unreasonable behaviour that people in all groups can be guilty of.

The extent of the comments on that thread baffled me. Full of I’m so glad I don’t have children because X, Y. It’s one thing to want to be child free which to me is a perfectly valid life choice, but I’m baffled by the level of bitching about parents & children. If someone wants to be child free why can’t they simply be child free & accept that others didn’t make that choice instead of ranting about how parents are always on at them about how fulfilled they are while at the same time ranting about how terrible it would be to have kids.

Again, involving a medical issue.

@ConfusedNT I’m sorry to hear that you experienced that too. 20% is horrendous. You can see why some people don’t set any store in unconditional love. I personally don’t believe it exists, but I can’t speak for others (obviously!).

@TwinsAndTiramisu Is there a reason why you’re so fixated on proving that the only way a childless person can be as tired as a mum is if they have a medical condition?

I think a (far from perfect) analogy might be someone who is into climbing mountains for example. And someone who isn't into that. Of course it's fine to not be into climbing mountains. There's a lot of major downsides that for many people, out weigh all the possible benefits of such an interest.

But it's valid, I think, for the extreme mountaineer to say "before I climbed Everest and got stuck and my nose and fingers fell off, I could never have guessed what it feels like to think I'm going to die alone on Everest" or "I'm having a really hard time at the moment, due to having no nose or fingers and confronting my own mortality" or "sometimes I need to share my experiences with other people who get it, because they've also climbed Everest". Like, I don't particularly think that's smug, self obsessed etc it's just true for that person. Different than for example, dismissing other people's interests, experiences and achievements because you think mountaineering is the only meaningful pursuit in life.

Not very empathetic responses from the person not interested in mountaineering might include "For godssake, stop going on about bloody Everest, we all know you had this "life changing experience" on the mountain blah blah you're so obsessed" or "stop complaining about having no nose or fingers, you did choose to climb Everest after all".

Obviously, not a great analogy because there are a lot of differences between mountaineering and parenting but it's just one way of framing it.

Not my medical issue though. I was caring for another person, just as you were caring for your baby. Still think it doesn’t count? Then I have nothing more to say to you.

If someone shares something bad with you, the normal thing is to sympathise with it. Empathise with it if possible. You're not supposed to share that your experience is better or worse. You're not supposed to compare.

E.g

"My mum was toxic."

Good: "I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure that was hard."
Bad: "Oh my mum is amazing!"
Bad: "That's nothing. You should hear what my mum used to do."

"I'm so tired."

Good: "I hear ya. It's rough not getting enough sleep."
Bad: "You don't know what tiredness is!"
Bad: "I slept 18 hours yesterday haha. It was amazing."

I sincerely hope parents of babies with colic or reflux, or teething babies, or sick babies don't complain they are tired, I mean these are all medical conditions...

@KimberleyClark That response to you was so callous. I’m really sorry that you experienced that - it must have been so difficult. Dementia is such a traumatic thing to witness.

@ConfusedNT @fitzwilliamdarcy

I think you’ve misread my post, because I don’t mention parental love for their children at all in it. I simply point out that the types of love that @TiredandHungry19 cites as unconditional really aren’t.

I’m sorry for your awful experiences, @fitzwilliamdarcy. My Dad was and is emotionally and verbally abusive, but never physically.

I lived through a period of temporary insomnia after a major disaster happened in a country I was living in at the time. No doubt insomnia is a medical condition too so I don’t know why I’m bothering but maybe that counts?!

Again - they aren't, to YOU. Why do you think you can speak for everyone else's feelings? It's very strange.

Thank you @fitzwilliamdarcy. It is heartbreaking. You’re not watching your child grow, you’re watching your parent disintegrate. I’m still reeling from the callousness of @TwinsAndTiramisu’s response.

@HamBone Thank you. I’m really sorry to hear that. Please don’t feel the need to qualify the type of abuse suffered - there’s no hierarchy.

I didn't misread it but I probably didn't explain the link between your post and how it sparked my train of thought sorry

You were speaking about how the love for a partner is conditional and if they abuse you it affects your love for them

And that reminded me of parents of teenagers who physically abuse them and how that pushes the limits of a mother's unconditional love and sometimes breaks it

But I wasn't disagreeing with your post or opinion, just adding my thought that came from that, apologies if it seemed like I was disagreeing with you, I just went off on a tangent

I’m sorry about your abusive npmum too, @fitzwilliamdarcy.

@TiredandHungry19 Love for your partner simply can’t be unconditional though, can it? There must be reasons why people fall in love in the first place-plus couples would never fall out of love if it was unconditional.

Same with parents. No one would ever be estranged from their parents if that love was also unconditional.

It's horrific dementia isn't it. we've just lost my DHs much loved aunt to it and whilst it's not the same as caring for a parent it has been heartbreaking

I think the callousness of the reply shows what the real problem is though. If someone lacks empathy (and they must do to reply like that to you) then of course they can't understand why what they are saying is wrong

So perhaps if you expand the phrase and give it more context. When saying "you don't know what tiredness is", is basically "In my lived experience, when I was in a relative position to yours, the level of exhaustion I felt then, was vastly lower than when I had a child"

It's not an abnormal concept. It's the lived experience of most parents. It's not trying to win a weird award for tiredness, it's verging on British humour, like when someone announces a pregnancy and someone declares "ooh, sleepless nights!" It's just something people say and for no real reason.

It's also not someone saying "hey, Jane, you know how you're caring for your relative and the level of stress and physical care means you haven't slept for 3 days, whilst trying to hold down your job...well, you don't know what tired is because I've got a baby" that's so ridiculous to keep suggesting these kind of scenarios are the circumstances under which such a flippant comment would be made.

Yes, so some people might not experience unconditional love for their partners, but others will. That's my whole point, you can't speak for everyone because you haven't experienced what everyone else has. I definitely feel unconditional love towards people in my family who have treated me very badly. Parents might experience a different kind of love when they have a child, I accept that, but saying it's the only kind of unconditional love is untrue and bizarre.

Same with parents. No one would ever be estranged from their parents if that love was also unconditional.

Some parents cut off their children. That surely according to your argument means that unconditional love doesn’t exist between parents and their kids?

It’s ironic really because aI’ve seen so many posts saying that becoming a parent made them a better, more caring person. That is obviously not true for some people on this thread!

But 20% of children are abused

Don't get me wrong I think for the vast majority of parents love for their child is unconditional

But I don't think you can say that people's love for their parents cannot be unconditional because some people are estranged from their parents, and then say a parents love for their child is unconditional despite the fact that some parents abuse their child

Exactly @ConfusedNT.

That's a bizarre interpretation. And incorrect.

My point was millions and millions of parents will state they had no idea of this level of tiredness, until they had a child.

And this constant "well, I had a condition that meant I couldn't sleep, so now what!"

Well, obviously that person is tired. With absolutely nothing to do with just having a child or not.

It's like "let's discuss this concept of parents making this comment regrading tiredness to non parents and the underlying tone or motives"

And someone continually piping up "here's a completely unrelated reason you might be tired " Well, yes. And no one is disputing that. But its absolutely nothing to do with the concept we're talking about.

Actually I think you will find that 'we' -as in multiple posters on this thread- are talking about that and you are the only one repeatedly and callously in at least one example telling us we shouldn't be

And as I have explained childlessness and insomnia can be intrinsically linked for many people. And as we are discussion childless and childfree people on this thread just disregarding a fair amount of childless womens voices from the conversation because 'it's medical' is fairly crappy

Especially given, by your standards, many new parents should not even be in the conversation as so many reasons babies don't sleep and therefore their parents don't is medically related