Childfree people ranting about parents

[the7Vabo]

Came across a thread on another site full of people ranting about children entitled “parents not everything is about you.” I get it to a point, as a parent I think society has become somewhat a overly child-centred. I assume however that the odd stories you see about parents demanding people give up train seats for ten year olds are just that, the odd story of unreasonable behaviour that people in all groups can be guilty of.

The extent of the comments on that thread baffled me. Full of I’m so glad I don’t have children because X, Y. It’s one thing to want to be child free which to me is a perfectly valid life choice, but I’m baffled by the level of bitching about parents & children. If someone wants to be child free why can’t they simply be child free & accept that others didn’t make that choice instead of ranting about how parents are always on at them about how fulfilled they are while at the same time ranting about how terrible it would be to have kids.

ooops, I forgot. Not allowed to post here.

It's amazing how some posters just make our point for us.

Is it because other peoples children are just so unbearably annoying?

@Lastqueenofscotland2 I haven't told that to anyone's face but you don't know what true unconditional love feels like before you have kids

If you tell someone you don't know what tiredness is (which is the phrase we were discussing) you are literally minimising their experience, there isn't any other way to take that particular phrase

In my example I gave you above, I could have said to the lady on crutches 'you don't know what limited mobility is unless you are in a wheelchair', instead I said, 'yes limited mobility is crap, it's very tiring and so many places are not set up properly for people who need crutches' I sympathised with her because I understood her situation. the reality is it is probably harder for me than someone on crutches temporarily but it's jot a race to the bottom and I'm not about to pull mobility top trumps

If I said I am tired and someone says to me 'oh god me too, my baby wouldn't sleep for hours last night, tiredness sucks doesn't it' I wouldn't feel my experience was invalidated and I would sympathise back with them

But if I say I am tried and someone jumps straight in with 'you don't know what tiredness is until you have a baby' then I am going to think they are being an arse.

I'm so sorry you never had the kind of unconditional love that a child should have with their parent and you hadn't felt that before.

I'm so glad that having a child has given you a second chance at feeling that kind of love.

If someone tells you they're tired, they're not asking you to tell them how much more tired you are.

But if you respond that you are really tired, it's far more likely it's because you are, rather than the weird concept you like to actively compete at tiredness.

If someone I know, said to me, "God, I'm shattered" I would say I was sorry to hear that and ask why, if anything had changed to make them tired, quite personal questions that I'd feel comfortable asking and because I personally have a connection and cared.

If Jane from accounts happened to be waiting by the coffee machine, I walked up, and she made a comment about being tired, I would quite possibly reply "oh it's a killer isnt it, little susie still isn't going through the night". I don't know Jane, and in reality she gives about as much brain space about my general tiredness as I do about hers. She's just a woman who made a comment about being tired, and I replied with mindless smalltalk on that common ground.

For someone to perceive that as trying to win at tiredness baffles me.

Quite the presumption.

So is telling childfree people they don't know what unconditional love is

It's one thing to say your love for a baby is different to any other love. It's another to tell people you don't know unconditional love without a baby. That's a presumption

Literally though, every example of tiredness before motherhood has been in relation to a medical condition. (That I've seen so far)

I categorically did not know this kind of tiredness pre motherhood. Oh, I knew tiredness. I would have declared how unbelievably tired I was. And me now, would honestly laugh at me pre-kids claiming I was exhausted.

But that's me. No medical conditions. Thinking back then that after two heavy nights out, and feeling groggy, I was exhausted. That's probably the best I felt on an energised day during the night feed phase.

My lived experience is that you don't know (this level of) tiredness until you are a parent. If I'm sharing that lived experience with someone, I'm not competing. I'm conversing.

When you remove the exceptions, due to either exceptional circumstances, or medical reasons, you will hear 99.9% of parents, echo that sentiment. It's true. We're not competing, we're being factual.

I wouldn't want to feel unconditional love for anyone anyway.

If someone tells you they are tired and you reply with 'you don't know tiredness until you have had a baby'

I'm just asking so I can store it up for when mothers get offended when I tell them my medical condition is medically considered more painful than childbirth, you know just after they complained how painful labour was (not that I would ever be such an arse as to say this)

But the reality is you don't know true pain until you have my condition

That's another really good point, where I think it's the way a certain audience receive it, because its become such a prickly and sensitised subject to the audience.

I would say, that an awful lot of people, myself included would mean "a love for a baby is different to any other love" when using the overused, clichéd, "unconditional love" which is always bounded out when parents describe their children. It's just lazy use of language. It's just the phrase that's become synonymous with children without any real thought to it anymore.

It's not meant as "you don't know what unconditional love is". I would know that. In fact it's pretty obvious that it's not meant in that literal sense. But that's how it's instantly taken. Every time.

You had never felt so tired before you had babies, because your only experience of tiredness was having a couple of heavy nights out.
Whereas when I was on the street homeless at 17 I ended up hallucinating with tiredness - I was too scared to sleep.

That reminds me of the labour threads!

People sharing their stories to reassure some poor soul who had recently been traumatised by her labour, then someone comes along with "People always exaggerating how awful labour is. It's nonsense. Mine was 20 mins from start to finish. I've had worse period cramps. My friends all said the same. You just need to woman up."

No one says, "Thanks for sharing, Mandy. That was not at all ignorant and thoughtless and doesn't make you look like an ass."

Confused as to why you are just responding with examples about medical conditions when I've said about three times, this majority rule and mindset is not relevant to extreme circumstances or medical conditions?

I'm just a little lost as to why you keep trying to put forward unique/niche examples that don't apply to the general rule/logic behind the debate.

No you are assuming the poster doesn't mean it that way because you wouldn't

That's not the same thing

What I find interesting is that childless/childfree women are apparently expected to accept that women will only know really tiredness if they become a parent because so many women say so

But when so many women who are childless or childfree say 'please don't say that we find it hurtful' we get so many posts/people explaining to us patiently how we shouldn't find it hurtful because it's not supposed to be

Why are our lived experiences and feelings not also valid

There is literally no reason for so many posters on this thread to make a point of telling women without children they don't know real love. Yet they keep popping up, sometimes it's their only contribution to the entire thread. Why wouldn't we be prickly if every thread that is about not having children someone has to pop along and let us know we don't know what love/tireness/joy/pain etc etc really is

@TwinsAndTiramisu It is because you are assuming your experience of being childless is the same as other people's. You can't know that. You can't know what other people are feeling.

So you don't actually have an answer to my question then?

@TwinsAndTiramisu

If a friend said to me “I’m just so exhausted, I have never ever felt anything like this”, I would be empathetic and supportive and do what I can to help, if appropriate and wanted. That’s not the same as saying “you (friend without children) don’t know tiredness!”. If a friend said “I never knew I could be this tired until I had children” then as above, I’d be a supportive friend. You seem to want to compare it to other people, why do you so desperately want to compare? What do you get out of it? There’s no award. If you are struggling, tell someone honestly instead of patronising them and acting as if you’re the authority on “tired” cause millions of women find parenting exhausting. It bloody is exhausting! That doesn’t give me a right to act as of my tiredness is the most tired ever.

I'm sorry to hear you were homeless. I have no idea what that must have been like, or how it felt.

It again though, falls under extreme circumstances.

This is not what we are discussing.

This is the average woman, with child vs child free. Apples with apples. Not the average woman, vs a woman with hallucinations from an extreme experience. Or with life changing disability.

This is not to be lacking in compassion in any sense. But it seems rather silly to attempt to discuss an issue, then put forward only niche circumstances that wouldn't apply to the overwhelming majority of the people concerned.

To no surprise, by my name, I have twins. When people discuss parenting, I don't continually butt in "oh, but that doesn't apply to me because I've got multiples"...that's pointless, and adds nothing. Everyone knows it doesn't apply to me/mums of multiples.

It does apply to the other 99% of the people. I'm the exception, not the rule. As per the examples on this thread.

But your question is nothing to do with the topic. That's why I ignored it.

Your circumstances are due to a medical condition.

Medical issues are not the topic in hand.

You seem to want to compare it to other people, why do you so desperately want to compare? What do you get out of it? There’s no award.

Er, that's literally the polar opposite of what I've said...

My question was literally the topic the rest was just fluff, but excluding the fluff my very specific on topic quesiton is:

If someone says they are tired and you respond with 'you don't know tired until you have a baby' what are you expecting them to say in reply?

So when mothers of newborn babies complain about being tired, do you sympathise or do you throw your twins at them? "You think you're tired, try having twins!"

My point is, some people are determined to insist that there is a constant comparison. It's so self absorbed. This "oh they must be trying to compete with me, invalidate me" mentality. It's because I've got no children.

Sorry, but the truth is, I probably don't give a rats arse about you, and you me. I'm making small talk.