Grandfather smacked DS bottom

[ranblungs]

DS can have meltdowns/big tantrums, usually when he's very tired. More so when he's at his grandparents' house (ex's parents). They have communicated to me that they found his behaviour very difficult at one point, but it seems to have resolved now.

ExDP did live with them but moved our two weeks ago.

DS (aged 4) told me yesterday evening that grandad had smacked his bottom because he was being naughty and that it "really hurt" he got upset as he was telling me and cried. I get the impression this wasn't necessarily recent.

DS also can play up at bed time when he is there and he told me that grandad pushes him back onto the bed for being naughty at bed time.

I'm not sure what to do next?

They are huge sources of childcare, ExDP is supposed to have him two nights per week but often works away so they will have him. They also help out during the week as/when needed.

The relationship between us was once very strained when DS was tiny.

I am furious that he has hit my child. Am I overreacting as it was just a smack on the bottom?

DS can be very challenging there.

Thank you for explaining your position but I think we are at slight cross purposes here.

What you have described is pretty much what I did, and what I think most other people do all the time. Its just common sense stuff. (with the exception of the distraction bit, I disagree with you there for two reasons. It doesn't address the underlying issues and do something to prevent the behaviour happening in future, secondly its impossible to 'distract' a child from unexpectedly doing something dangerous. By definition you don't know its going to happen so can't plan for it)

You haven't described how you deal with reward, consequence and punishment, which is the crux of the entire disagreement really. I believe that negative behaviour requires punishment and that all punishment causes a person to suffer in some way. I just believe that a sharp pain on the bum or hand from a measured smack is a less damaging form of suffering than other, more emotionally coercive methods.

I agree that prevention is absolutely better than cure, but when something has happened, how do you deal with it, and give your children incentives so they don't do it again?

Tbh if evidence came and slapped to across the face you still wouldn't stand down from your stance, so what is the actual point of trying to prove other way. You feel violence to those smaller than you is acceptable and that's that. I'd call that being a coward.

I'm really happy to look at evidence, I've said so a few times on this thread.

The issue is that there aren't any studies that don't have huge flaws in both their methodologies and their conclusions. Read them yourself if you want instead of just taking people's word that they 'prove' your point and you'll see what I mean.

I'd argue the fact I go looking for reputable studies in order to challenge my own assumptions and ideas makes me the opposite of what you are characterising me as.

On the other hand, name calling me because you disagree with me without substantively engaging with anything I said isn't exactly indicative of someone who is open minded and willing to think about a subject unemotionally.

I think you are holding me to a higher standard than you hold yourself.

Smacking has been illegal in Sweden since the 70s and they don't appear to be a violent, crime ridden country.

Sweden has one of the highest (and increasing) rates of gun crime in Europe.

Although I doubt that you can make a link to a smacking ban and increased gang violence, robberies and shootings.

They've got a lower murder rate than the UK and France for a start, and far lower than the US where smacking is still legal. Smacking was only made illegal recently in France, Scotland, Wales and NI. Still legal in England but its only a matter of time. Its illegal in over 60 countries including all our neighbouring countries.

Distracting by reading a book? 😂😂 My kids bashing hell out his little sister... So I'll read a book to him?
One child is significantly easier, having to be places and do things with a tantruming toddler refusing to get dressed and hitting me (normal toddler behaviour before you ask me to review my parenting)...I don't have time to wait it out, I've got to get my other kid to hospital appointments. I ignore them mainly but not if I've got to be somewhere.

Distraction after hurling himself into the road? Okay..

I've yet to see alternatives stated here.
I use the naughty step but apparently that is on par with water torture so I'm at a loss as to what I'm actually supposed to do

It tends to be when you bring up your own kids that you really reflect on how you were brought up. A friend and I were talking about the smacking that went on when we were at primary school and how strange it seems now its been illegal for a while. That's probably how kids will view having been smacked by parents in future.

Exactly this. Still not had one single piece of practical advice on punishment/consequence from all of the perfect parents who think I'm the devil incarnate because I occasionally gave my kids a smacked bottom or hand, or sent them to their room with no supper.

These books are useful

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0091923859?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

www.amazon.co.uk/Little-Angels-Essential-Transforming-Children/dp/056351941X/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=1QJYTUYJXX9EY&keywords=little+angel+tanya&qid=1677172315&sprefix=little+angel+tanya%2Caps%2C101&sr=8-3

Sweden has the 4th highest robbery rate in the EU and is the only country in Europe where gun crime is increasing.

You’d be better off comparing to Norway, which banned parental corporal punishment in 1972 and has significantly lower crime rates than Sweden.

Of course you do, because you smacked your children and you'd need to admit to being a abusive parent to acknowledge the truth.

How old is he? Toddlers I'd first comfort the sister, then tell him we need to go because we've an important appointment so I'm going to pick him up and put him in the car. I'd tell him to take deep breaths to calm down and do deep breaths with him should moving (I've done this with a 3 yr old while baby was in a sling.) Get both onto car and go. When calm (whether during or after appointment) we'd discuss why no hitting. He's extremely gentle with his sister now. (Sometimes does knock her over by accident as he's an enthusiastic 5 yr old and she's 18/12 old but never on purpose or when angry) he'll get cross and ask me to stop her taking a toy or whatever but he doesn't snatch or hit her. Also I can confiently say 'we don't hit each other in this family, we don't shout at each other in this family' and he sees it's true. So yeah, practically that's what I do.

Apologies all. That was a very important phone call.

So I see we've got exactly what we all knew would happen...hitter demands alternatives, alternatives are given, hitter denies alternatives have been given. Quelle surprise.

The problem with smacking isn't just that it damages children. It also often seems to go alongside a God complex whereby people think that things become fact merely by their stating them ("smacking is moral", "nobody gave practical examples of alternatives"). Whether the smacking creates the God complex or vice versa, I don't know, but I've noticed that the two go together very often. We've established that smacking bypasses reason, after all.

It may be partly because hitters are more concerned with justifying themselves so they don't have to admit they made mistakes than they are with assaulting children. The ego is powerful.

Anywat, I'm much too tired to go into full detail, but effectively the main points I planned to make earlier are:

• model the behaviour you want them to learn, including apologising

• supervise and be preventative when they're too young to understand danger or reason

• enact natural consequences where you must, eg, not playing nicely with toy, toy is removed for a while

• positive reinforcement, ie praise for doing well. Then you often need only not to praise when things aren't going well.

Unfortunately, these methods don't give the quick satisfaction of venting your frustration by hitting, and they do require the parent to do some work on themselves. Which I suppose partly explains the vehement opposition to them, to the extent of denying they even exist.

Not correct. Sweden was the first country.
brilliantmaps.com/corporal-punishment/

If you want to be pernickety (given that you said Sweden banned it in the 70s), Sweden banned all corporal punishment in 1966. Norway had a ban on school corporal punishment for a while before Sweden and banned parental corporal punishment in 1972.

Anyway, it’s a moot point because the factors influencing adolescent and adult criminal behaviour include many, many more factors.

The point I was making (which seems to have gone over your head) is that we have proof that not smacking children doesn't have adverse outcomes, as we have seen with Sweden having banned it decades ago. You being pernickety about Norway being earlier is just trying to distract from the fact that its perfectly possible to bring up a child without assaulting them.

Again I have to insist, you aren't really answering what I said, you are answering what you want me to have said.

Nobody is denying that you can do all of those things, I certainly did.

But you haven't described beyond a vauge reference to 'natural consequences' is how you dealt with punishment and reward.

All those approaches are great, strategic level behaviour controls that we all do, but what you are still failing to describe is actual tactical level 'my child is doing X and it's naughty/disruptive/dangerous' type things.

I suspect we wont ever get anywhere as the truth will probably be somewhere along the grounds of either ignoring completely, or the usual wishy washy 'thats not ok sweetheart' type stuff, which passes as discipline these days.

Shame really. Also please stop imagining bad faith motives for me such as I 'vented my frustration' on my kids by hitting them or other such silliness. Its a cliche but it's true, disciplining my children (whether smacking or other consequences) always hurt me more than it ever hurt them.

You think it hurt you more than it hurt them only because you have first hand exoerienceof your own feelings. I assure you it hurt them more, mentally, physically etc you don't want to see it which I get but still.

I mean I have asked two of them this afternoon when they popped round earlier, and they reiterated they were fine with it, but I expect they were just lying to me?

<Sigh> no, I’m saying that you can’t link crime stats with the banning of corporal punishment, there are dozens of confounding factors that make that an impossible link to make.

Obviously that point went way over your head.

I’m certainly not arguing that a ban on parental corporal punishment is a bad thing.

Oh dear. You're not getting it so I can't be bothered to argue with you. Waste of my time

My child gets some scissors, they're age inappropriate, I take them for safety, child cries and gets upset, I accept she's upset, she wanted the scissors, I comfort her until she feels better, I don't give her the scissors, when calm I explain why she didn't get the scissors.

Son hits sister, I separate, explain no hitting, hitting hurts quickly, comfort toddler who was hit, have son sit in call down corner to calm down as he'll be screaming and upset as would only be aggressive if massively wound up, take deep breaths with him to get him to calm down, once calm explain why we don't hit, talk about what to do instead if angry. Repeat. This was when he was 3ish,now he's 5 he'll say he's angry and going to calm down rather than hit as he's been taught those techniques.

Do you want other specific l? Please pose specific questions I'd you wish specifics

I wouldn't want to tell someone so adamant they hit me for my own good that they were wrong either. I absolutely stand by my assertion it did them no good. Do they hit their children? If not and they're so ok with you hitting them and it's so effective why don't they do it?

No, please go on - explain it?

How does a smacking ban affect criminal behaviour in adolescents and adults?

Especially compared with the known factors of being male, in a single parent family, growing up in poverty, early care experience, school exclusion, substance abuse, poor impulse control?