Grandfather smacked DS bottom

[ranblungs]

DS can have meltdowns/big tantrums, usually when he's very tired. More so when he's at his grandparents' house (ex's parents). They have communicated to me that they found his behaviour very difficult at one point, but it seems to have resolved now.

ExDP did live with them but moved our two weeks ago.

DS (aged 4) told me yesterday evening that grandad had smacked his bottom because he was being naughty and that it "really hurt" he got upset as he was telling me and cried. I get the impression this wasn't necessarily recent.

DS also can play up at bed time when he is there and he told me that grandad pushes him back onto the bed for being naughty at bed time.

I'm not sure what to do next?

They are huge sources of childcare, ExDP is supposed to have him two nights per week but often works away so they will have him. They also help out during the week as/when needed.

The relationship between us was once very strained when DS was tiny.

I am furious that he has hit my child. Am I overreacting as it was just a smack on the bottom?

DS can be very challenging there.

As we covered earlier, if your measure of morality is linked to if something is legal or not, you will get yourself in a very dark place very quickly.

Whose countries laws are the objective standard?

Some things that are illegal in this world are completely moral - gay marriage, apostasy etc

Some things are legal but totally immoral - adultery etc.

I prefer to go with right and wrong.

Are you implying that a law designed to protect the welfare of children could have nefarious intentions?

This is going to start getting personal, and its not intended to be, but to be clear, I never had to hover over my children, I never had to put them on reigns to leave the house, when I spoke they listened and (usually) did what i asked, they were and still are polite and well behaved. As adults they could absolutely tell me they hated growing up in our house because of their treatment, to date they haven't, in fact they often tell me and others how happy their childhoods were.

There was no climate of fear, we talked openly about everything and nothing was off the table, everything was explained to them and they were constantly reasoned with and talked to in a mature way. Smacking, on the rare occasions that it happened never took place when I was angry or 'at the end of my tether', it was always a considered option.

I don't think I ever smacked any of them beyond the age of about 9.

I have a friend who didn't believe in smacking. Fair enough, their choice. But I recall often seeing them trying to enforce a time out or some kind of other punishment and having to keep a stubborn child returning again and again until eventually they mentally broke and complied, sobbing, wheezing and totally exhausted from the emotional effort of the encounter. Meanwhile they were no doubt utterly convinced that that was better for the child than a short sharp tap on the bum, 30 seconds of tears then crack on would have been. 🙄

To this day they no doubt still believe that they never hurt their children, I am still friends with them but I don't doubt they think they parented better than me.

Interesting that my kids all turned out more motivated, successful and mature than theirs did, although I'm not saying its because I used physical punishment on rare occasion, i think its far more likely down to a combination of factors, including our general approach to preparing them to stand on their own and be mature and robust, rather than molly coddle them.

Very happy for you to think that you are better than me because you have never 'hurt' your children. Good luck.

All I ask is that you are honest with yourself and think about what 'hurt' actually means and what is actually best for children in the long term.

@ColonelDax you keep mentioning time outs and I'm going to stop you there.

Time outs are considered ineffective by many child psychologists, paediatricians, etc. I wouldn't smack my child, but I wouldn't use a time out either. It isn't an either or situation.

Thank you for this very long exercise in defensiveness and self-justification.

But honestly, I preferred it when you were claiming that supervising a one year old is the worst form of helicopter parenting (The Worst!), arguing by assertion that smacking is moral, admitting that smacking doesn't explain anything and back and forthing over whether or not you could cover sockets.

That was at least on topic. Perfectly illustrated why smacking is always shit parenting, too.

So Out of interest....
How do people discipline their children?
My first was an absolute angel, did as told, my middle child was feral, didn't listen, was dangerously unpredictable in terms of road safety, took delight in pushing boundaries.

What would you use to discipline?

Genuine question, what would you use instead?

If you think its shit, then fair enough, don't do it.

What is your parenting approach, particularly around punishment/consequence then?

Because you are doing a very good job of telling me why I'm immoral and wrong, but other than telling parents they have to hover over their children for every second of their lives until adulthood, you haven't actually given any practical alternatives?

Exactly my point, a lot of people like to sit in their ivory tower and tell parents how everything they are doing is wrong, but then are less willing to give practical suggestions.

I think of myself as average intelligence, maybe a bit above, I am educated to post grad level (although I came to it late in life) and I like to think I put a lot of thought into what I do.

I am lost with a lot of modern parenting techniques, they predicate endless patience, endless time, and a significant degree of assumed knowledge about relatively difficult concepts of child psychology.

The fear is that if I struggle, then the ~50% of people in this country who have below average intelligence don't have a chance, and if you take away the only simple methods they have (smacking, time outs etc), then they won't move onto the more complex ones, they will just end up with nothing.

I'd do time out.

If you think its shit, then fair enough, don't do it.

This doesn't really cut it when it comes to violence against children, and a parenting technique that is now known to have negative outcomes. People promoting it now are worse than those who did it historically because in the past, they didn't know conclusively that it's bad and nowadays we do.

What is your parenting approach, particularly around punishment/consequence then?

In terms of children who are too young to reason or understand danger, it's to supervise them properly so they don't get a chance to stick their fingers in sockets. But you think this is the worst form of helicopter parenting (the worst, I tell you!).

other than telling parents they have to hover over their children for every second of their lives until adulthood

That's what you take from "properly supervise your one or two year old"?

And you expect me to believe I could have an intelligent discussion with you about alternatives to hitting?

So try me.

How do you discipline and control your children once they aren't toddlers?

And also you keep saying that smacking has been proven to have negative outcomes, I genuinely haven't seen any studies that say anything like that, without conflating together a whole load of other factors such as socio-economic status etc, and that also treat a light smack on a bare bum and beating a child so hard they end up in hospital as the same thing. 🙄

Do you have access to any that don't do this, because I'd be genuinely willing to read them and then reconsider my position.

Why should I try you? You think keeping a one year old away from sockets is the worst form of helicopter parenting and equivalent to hovering over kids every second until adulthood.

What have you got to contribute, except to illustrate beautifully why smacking is such a bad technique?

Ignore above, quoted myself by mistake. 😂

You keep saying that smacking has been proven to have negative outcomes, I genuinely haven't seen any studies that say anything like that, without conflating together a whole load of other factors such as socio-economic status etc, and that also treat a light smack on a bare bum and beating a child so hard they end up in hospital as the same thing. 🙄

Do you have access to any that don't do this, because I'd be genuinely willing to read them and then reconsider my position.

I genuinely haven't seen any studies that say anything like that, without conflating together a whole load of other factors such as socio-economic status etc

See, right here. You've seen the studies, with empirical evidence, and decided they aren't true.

Why should I try you?

This is your opportunity to prove me wrong.

Please tell me how you did it differently with your kids and what other parents should do.

You are adamant that I'm wrong so show all the parents reading this thread why they should ignore my advice and take yours.

Because silly old me, i read things, then I think about them and analyse them to see what conclusions can be drawn.

there are plenty of very good scientific studies on all sorts of things, there are also plenty of bad ones. Sloppy researching, biased perspectives, correlation not causation etc. All play a part.

If a studies contents don't support its conclusions im going to want more evidence before I agree with those conclusions.

Thats not unusual.

You understand what a confounding variable is?

This is your opportunity to prove me wrong.

I've already proved you wrong several times, as have other posters. Your reasons for smacking are literally argument by assertion, dismissing supervision as extreme helicopter parenting and then just a flat out "no it doesn't" even when you look at empirical academic studies.

Why should I engage in a deeper discussion with someone like that?

@ReneBumsWombats you haven't proved @ColonelDax wrong at all, not even once. 'Shouting louder and more often' does not equal anything I'm afraid.

OK cool. You have served me up like a kipper in this thread that's for sure. I've been well and truly told and my argument soundly beaten.

Meanwhile can you explain to all the parents reading this who now know not to copy me exactly how you parented and dealt with reward and punishment/consequence so they can do it to?

There is no intelligent discussion to be had with someone who takes "keep your one year old away from sockets" to mean "hover endlessly over your children until they're 18". Even if they did hastily Google "confounding variable" to try to explain their rejection of empirical evidence. (You'll find there are enough studies to account for that, and actually, the fact that smacking tends to occur more commonly among families who don't have the tools and privileges to do better is actually a further argument against it).Your contribution here is to explain that you use smacking as an alternative to safeguarding and admit that it isn't designed to explain anything. Thank you for that, you did it well.There's a good thread about dealing with tantrums over here. I'm on it a little bit if you're interested in me, and we know you are.

This is straying into ad hominem now. I didn't need to google anything.

I am genuinely keen to read any study that supports your position that confounding factors have been excluded or otherwise accounted for.

I still don't understand why you are reluctant to tell me how you parent differently to me.

There is no ad hominem in stating that your argument style so far gives me no reason to wish to discuss anything deeper with you, or to imagine there is anything to gain from it.

But all right. I'll give you a brief overview.

I don't hit, never have. When they were too young to reason or understand danger, I just kept them in as safe an environment as possible. If I saw them toddling towards a socket, I stopped them. If I realised I had messed up safeguarding, I made a change to what I did. I know you disapprove of that, so no need to tell me. But prevention is better than cure.

If they tantrummed because they really wanted to jump in the river or whatever, I stayed calm and tried to distract them, maybe by reading a book or playing music. Sometimes the tantrum just had to burn itself out. They're both older now and don't do it any more.

I try to model the behaviour I want from them. I don’t want shouting and hitting, so I don't do it. If I fuck up, I apologise.

To be honest, they're both lovely and well behaved, well socialised kids so I don't really have to do much correcting these days. They bicker and wind each other up a bit...it's pretty mild so it doesn't usually require intervention, to be honest. If it does, I'll talk to them and ask how they'd feel if X said Y. Sometimes one will come to tell tales a bit, but they usually just want to feel heard. Once I've listened, they're fine.

I would love to discuss this further but I just got a very important phone call and I'm afraid I have to go. Don't hit me.