To hate some of the negative male narrative re having kids

[ChocChoc889]

I'm 33, friends are starting to have babies/planning to have them soon/talking about it. DP and I had a practical talk about what it would look like, mat leave etc tonight. He's so fucking down about it! Like it's some enormous thing he needs to get his head around. In one breath he says he wants kids and how lovely it is having a family but then he starts getting all negative. All our male friends are the same, joke about how their life is about to end.

And I'm sitting here trying to convince him it'll be fine but you know what, I really want to tell him to FUCK OFF. I'm the one having to carry the baby, taking all the health and career risks, I'm the one having to take maternity leave etc, in the short term it's really shit for me. And I really want someone who's excited and happy and wants to do this with me.

I make 2x times his salary. I have a very supportive mum. I could comfortably go have a baby on my own. And after tonight's conversation, I'm really fucking tempted to walk away. I don't want to be some kind of downer who trapped him for the next 20 years.

Anyone else felt this way? Or are all the men I know a bit shit?

What do you mean? I love having kids. They enhance my life. I'm sure lots of parents feel the same. All my friends certainly do.
But having a baby with someone who doesn't want them sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I have a friend who was mega broody for years, while recovering from terrible marriage breakdown. Now suddenly, she is regarding people with kids with abject horror. Marvelling at how people can sacrifice their lives for THAT. Grateful as heck that current boyfriend is childfree & not bothered. It's hilarous and... she can be as negative as she likes. Not because she's female, just because everyone is allowed to have own views.

"Men are weird. My DH was the same at first when the babies were small, he just wasn't into them. When my first hit around 2.5 years old and was interactive and fun he fell in love. Now he's great with them."

Well that's pretty shit of him.

Tiny babies are exhausting and not much fun. I do enjoy time with my kids a lot more now that they're more interactive. But I don't get to just opt out of their lives until they're "fun enough".

People go "men are like that". But they're not like that because of biology. They're like that because society allows them to get away with it.

One time we left two of the kids with my brother while my SIL and I, and the two younger kids, went Christmas shopping. When we got back my mother said my brother was "burnt out." Yeah. After two hours of looking after his son and nephew. I do this 24/7 but my mother doesn't think I'm ever burnt out. 🙄

I am a single parent by choice and I congratulate myself on this decision every day. Yeah, it's hard. But still easier than having to carry a deadweight (partner) along for the ride.

Of all the couples I know, the only one where both partners do seem to share the load equally are a lesbian couple.

Long story short, I agree that OP should either find a partner who's enthusiastic about ttc, or do it on her own and spare herself all the abuse around contact and cms that we see around here.

I'm convinced most men would rather not have kids at all, but are emotionally cajoled into having them by partners whose biological clocks are in overdrive, and go along with it just to keep the peace!

In circumstances where you have a reluctant father, it's inevitable they're going to be "hands off" in the childrearing. A case of "you're the one who wanted this baby, you can deal with it!"

Totally agree.

There are a few men who genuinely want parenthood but they are rare. Most acquiesce to get along and can't keep up the pretense indefinitely.

He'll most likely be a moan and a whinge about parenthood for years. I can approximately imagine what the comments will be like when the baby arrives.

My exDH was like that with every property we bought. The reluctance, the feet-dragging, the moan about every repair, the bitching about every expense, the whinge about hard work even though it was only me DIYing, organising and paying for it. He took my energy and positivity away from what I actually love doing.
He was only happy when we made money selling... Then back to downer. Ugh!

These big life events can be joyful and exciting with the right partner but a wrong one can steal all your thunder too.

This is a huge red flag. You are lucky in one sense that he is showing his true colours now rather than after having the children.

Seriously rethink about what kind of father you want for your children.

So it took him 2.5 years of being a father until he got into his own kids? That sounds awful.

The danger with men like this is they may never 'get into' their kids.

This is why so many of my professional and non professional friends are having babies on their own. It's why I did. I couldn't find anyone who actively wanted a family. Men aren't family oriented any more. They just want to have a good time.

I see this kind of thing on MN all the time. Men being such awful fathers, the bar being set so low but they are still a great dad.

I read something here the other day about a mum doing all the night wakings because her DH can't cope with a lack of sleep. I have heard this time and time again. Or 'he doesn't hear the DC at night' yes of course he doesn't hear them....

See, this is interesting to me because most of the fathers I know (either male friends or partners/husbands of female friends) fell in two camps.

The kind that made jokes about their lives “ending,” it was because yes, their lives would have to change significantly and it was obvious to anyone with eyes that they weren’t ready to be fathers, and were barely capable of being in relationships. They were still going out and getting rat-arsed half the nights of the week, still doing things like coming home and vomming in a fucking potted plant, still thinking it was “ok to do class A drugs as long as only on weekends.” Yes, their lives would be ending if they decided to make a proper go of being a father to an infant because their lives would be ending if they decided to make a proper go of being a responsible adult at all.

The other half were already “growing up” or grown ups. They were spending quality time with their partner/wife, being helpful around the house already, no drugs, getting rat-arsed MAYBE on holidays and still not to the point of black-out vomiting anymore, and when they went out with their mates, they chose to come home at reasonable times off their own backs, not because they felt “nagged” or what have you. These men still had to deal with all the stress of new fatherhood, but there wasn’t the childish “oh, my life is over” shite like from the first group.

So whoever said it earlier, I think was 100% right. You already know what kind of father they’re going to be by what kind of partner/husband they’re being now. OP says DP is “generally excellent.” But really think about specifics, OP. How does he treat you when he’s exhausted, starving, at his worst? Is he still kind or is he a dick? How does he act when he’s sick? What about when you’re sick? Does he help when family comes to visit, or expect you to play hostess whether it’s his family or yours? These are the little things that will matter.

To me this supposed "negative male narrative" is entirely reasonable. Those are the exact reasons I'm child-free. Reading MN makes being a parent seem even more boring, stressful and unenjoyable than I already thought it was no matter how much you slag people who don't want it off as "childish".

What I don't know is why the men who realise the negatives of having children still have them. Maybe they do just have them to placate their partners, if so that's a cowardly way to live and they should still step up afterwards.

As a child-free couple I do know that more dads in our social circle express their envy/wistfulness at our lifestyle - our ability to hold on to a lot of the fun things they used to do, to be spontaneous, to go out, to travel, to party. The mums - even the wildest party animals I used to know! - seem to have found it easier to put their pre-child lives in a box marked "the past". In some cases it's a little sad because it's obvious DP and I have been put into that box and we don't fit into their cosy parenting lives any more. But only in some cases.

My DH was the one who wanted children and has more patience with them than I do and they are the absolute light of his life. Not all men are like this, OP, find a better one.

I'm the one having to carry the baby, taking all the health and career risks, I'm the one having to take maternity leave etc, in the short term it's really shit for me.

Actually, you don't HAVE to do any of these things. Carrying a baby is a choice. Taking risks is a choice. Maternity leave is a choice. Regardless of how shit it might be, you would still be making a choice to do it. You would be doing these things because you wanted to, not because you had to.

If you start going down the 'I had to do all this...' route, you will invariably find you are told 'Well you're the one who wanted to do it...' - that is our default response to someone complaining about something they chose to do. You'll then be starting another thread in a couple of years time, based on a throwaway comment, with the title 'DP didn't want our child'.

I mean, it’s a really interesting discussion, but I’m not sure the OP’ll be back.

It’s obviously your decision not to have children and it sounds like the right one.

But I don’t think it’s fair to say that your life ‘ends’ when you have kids. The MN version of parenting makes it sound shit because the narrative now is that parenting is SO HARD when, actually, it’s as hard as you make it.

Yes, there are hard moments and long days and boring bits and difficult nights. But you’re forgetting the other bits - like the moment I saw my 3-year-old and baby really ‘playing’ for the first time, or the cuddles in bed I have with my 10-year-old son every night, or the chats I have with my daughter… not to mention the games, the playing on the beach, watching them open their Christmas stockings, my baby’s little hand stroking my hair as she feeds.

It’s actually pretty joyful a lot of the time.

And I still go out, have fun, party, travel and do all the things I used to do. Because I’ve designed it that way.

(It helps that I didn’t co-sleep, do baby-led weaning, attachment parenting, shush-pat or any of the other crap that people do now. As I said, it’s as hard as you make it.)

"Any more"?! Come off it, previous generations of men would routinely spend their evenings in the local and leave the other half to deal with the children..... because that's what was expected!

And previous generations of men would never even dream of changing a nappy!! Day or night!

Well, my partner wanted kid(s) more than me. He was definitely not negative about it. Turns out when DD came along he was ridiculously lazy and hands off...and still is 5 years later which is one of the main reasons I never had another with him.
So there is no way of knowing for sure how things will turn out after you have a child.
I think it's not a bad thing that he is thinking about these things. However if I'm honest he does sound like the hands off type. Do you want to do the majority of the work, OP? If so that's fine, but go in with your eyes open.

And previous generations of men would never even dream of changing a nappy!! Day or night!

And they all drive Capris
And they all watch Spurs
And...

Your talking men of Mumsnet

Lots of men love being dad. I spent a lot of time away for work and OH was happy to look after his girls. Those of our friends with children, their partners seemed to be very much involved. Changing nappies and night feeds was not a mystery to them.

OH's dad was also hands on apparently and when visiting would readily change a nappy or clean up sick or other mess. Perhaps people should keep an eye on their partners family to see the environment they were raised in.

Totally. I have no idea where Mumsnet finds these shit men. I don't know any blokes like this. My DH does his fair share, so does my BIL and the husbands of my friends. The ones who split up also do an equal amount.
Probably made up by all the childless bores who seem suddenly to have joined this site, like my colleague who is 'too busy with her cats' to have children.

Been a man just over 40 years now (before that I was a mere boy). I have never known any man give an indication that they were jealous about women getting pregnant, let alone being pissed off about it.

Maybe you're in another country with different society norms? I'm in the UK

@sawdustformypony i agree all the men I’ve ever touched on this topic with have just expressed relief they don’t have to do it.

Apart from maybe ‘transwomen’ who I have seen express jealousy.

@Cuppsoupmonster Apart from maybe ‘transwomen’ who I have seen express jealousy

Ah yes - forgot about them (I very rarely give them a passing thought, to be honest). Yes, they might fancy getting a bit pregnant.

I think they love their partners and think they'll have to do it eventually no matter who they're with. I think men should be more honest upfront that they don't want them, or that if they do they don't have any intention of helping. If my DH had done that, I would have left him (or decided not to have children). I have thought about this alot, people should really understand how hard it is and what is required and then I think many more would choose to be childfree. I myself am still in shock with just how much of a hard adjustment it has been. I don't know why people aren't more honest about it

YABU having a baby is major. When you finally have one your DP won't seem so dramatic I promise you.

You've already emphasised how much more you earn than him, it's no secret that sometimes when women are breadwinners they hold this against their partners. But it also could be he wants to be in a better position before bringing life into this world.

YABU