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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

My MILs partner smacked our 3 year old

284 replies

BubblingRage · 18/02/2023 12:46

Sorry for this being very long winded!
A bit of background first. MIL moved her new partner into her house after talking to each other for a month during the first lockdown. Everything was very quick and he seemingly arrived at her house with nothing. No furniture, towels, tv… literally just a handful of clothes. I always found him a bit “iffy” and refused to let my then 2 year old round to his nanny’s without me or my husband being there. (Once lockdown lifted obviously). Fast forward nearly 2 years and I’ve warmed to him, so I finally agree for my MIL to have our 3 and 1 year old overnight near Christmas so we could go out a celebrate my birthday. For a couple of weeks afterwards my 3 year old didn’t want “nanny” and (I shall refer to him as) “R” to come round our house. He also started not wanting to go round to nanny’s house either. This was very unusual as he usually dotes on his nan. Alarm bells starting ringing.
They came round to ours on Boxing Day as their surrogate Christmas Day. I noticed that R was often rolling his eyes and shaking his head at our DS. He wasn’t doing anything wrong, he was just an excited 3 year old at Christmas!
DS didn’t mention anything for a couple of weeks so I assumed he’d forgotten all about whatever was bugging him. Every so often he would drop into conversation or just randomly say that he doesn’t like “R”. I lightly questioned him about it but never really got a proper answer out of him. My DH asked MIL if anything had happened. She said R told DS off for throwing a dice. So we assumed that was what was wrong!
This morning DS randomly said again that he doesn’t like R. I sat him down and said that I will always help him. I always believe him and will never be angry or sad if he tells me what is bothering him and that I will always help him. But that I can’t help him if he doesn’t tell me what’s wrong. He then said that “R” smacked him round the head when he had a sleepover at nanny’s. Nanny had gone to get him a drink, DS was playing with a dice and R smacked him. He didn’t tell him off or shout, just smacked him.
I am beyond livid and although he’s only 3, I believe my son implicitly.
I don’t know what to do. We’re going to mention it to MIL and not let DS round to their house. But I feel like that’s not enough!
im just absolutely gutted for my son. And I’m so annoyed that I didn’t listen to my own instinct.
What would you do in this situation?!

OP posts:
DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 18:27

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 15:28

this just doesnt ring true at all, where has a 3 year old got that sort of language from? Children who have been smacked dont respond like this - otherwise it would be as easy as this to uncover abuse, wouldnt it?

I dont know what to suggest, but it all sounds very weird and worrying, and sorry, I dont know what to say - I wouldnt take it as a full and frank diclosure of anything though

Show quote history

FFS !!!!

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 18:30

MaireadMcSweeney · 18/02/2023 13:54

OP cannot do a police check
she can't do a Clare's law
only the partner can have a disclosure. She could request it on MIL's behalf but they would only disclose to MIL.

YES SHE CAN !!! Anyone can request a background check if they have reason to believe the partner of a friend or relative may pose a risk. And they can request it as a parent of a child in contact with the person in question. The police will also disclose anything of concern even without the parents requesting a check, if they report it.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 18:40

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 18:27

FFS !!!!

Show quote history

what is that supposed to mean?

How many 3 year olds talk about "being smacked around the head"? Where has this language come from? That is a worry - is he hearing threats?

How many 3 year old are going to be harping on about a simple smack after 2 months? Honestly, if you think this is likely, you have never spent any time trying to get a three year old to divulge what happened 2 weeks ago.....

A man is in the room with his partner and her grandchild, she leaves, he gets up, hits the grandchild, and sits back down again???

If someone has hit or threatened this child, then I dont think this account, and these circumstances are the truth of the matter.

and based on the language the child is using, it sounds like he has heard threats, in some situation or other, habitually

Original poster
BubblingRage · 18/02/2023 18:51

So a bit more background on my MIL. She had an affair and left my husbands dad for another man who had a terminal illness (they were childhood sweethearts) she married him shortly before he died. My DH had a bit of trouble wrapping his head round all of it (understandably) and she truly believed I was manipulating him against her… I wasn’t.
We then built a better relationship between her and myself when I was pregnant with DS1. DH has said that she never laid a hand on him when he was younger and that smacking was definitely not a thing in their household.
In lockdown 1, when they introduced bubbles for single households, we asked her if she wanted to form one. She turned us down as she was planning on moving in with R.
He has 2 grown children from a previous relationship who he sees a few times a year. No mention of their mum.
The only thing I can find online about him is his linked in page and a CV which has a 20 month gap in it.
She recently bought a house on her own and he pays her rent as he couldn’t go in on the mortgage due to having some debt, which he has told my husband he’s now paid off. Another red flag. Where has he got the money to pay it off?
He works for the local council so I’m assuming they’d crb check him?

DS has over exaggerated things in the past but I definitely wouldn’t say he’s a liar! He’s got the memory of an elephant so is very reliable in that respect.

I think we’re going to sit MIL down in person and ask her about it and tell her that DS will not be spending time at her house if he is there.
I don’t want to give her an ultimatum as what she does with her own personal life is her business. She can see DS but it has to be at our house and supervised.
Im also going to apply for background through Sarah’s law.

OP posts:
MySugarBabyLove · 18/02/2023 19:05

I think the fact that people here don’t seem to know the difference between Clare’s law and Sarah’s law means that nobody can possibly tell the OP what she can or can’t find out.

Claire’s law is for adults to be able to do a background check on a partner to see whether they have previous convictions against a partner. Nothing to do with child abuse and only a partner can request one.

Sarahs law is to check whether someone has a history of child abuse, someone can request one if their child is in that person’s presence, but the information from it very much varies from area to area.

I do also agree with @Nimbostratus100 · that the three year old’s wording sounds indicative of something else.

There’s no way a three year old is going to be able to tell someone word for word exactly what happened several months ago and be accurate about it. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s lying, he’s at the very least heard the wording from somewhere, but “hit around the head” isn’t three year old language.

OP does he go to nursery? Could he have heard this wording from another child who has heard it from a parent or older sibling?

How did the conversation emerge when he told you all this? Did you lead him in any way?

I’m not saying that this R is innocent, nobody knows. But talk of offering ultimatums and threatening the MIL that if she doesn’t break up with him she’ll never see the child again is over dramatic. It’s possible to minimise the child’s interaction with this man without having to go in all guns blazing based on an account of a three year old three months down the line using language which is not a child’s language.

I would be more concerned that this has happened somewhere else tbh or that he’s overheard someone telling someone that it’s happened to them.

Original poster
BubblingRage · 18/02/2023 19:12

MySugarBabyLove · 18/02/2023 19:05

I think the fact that people here don’t seem to know the difference between Clare’s law and Sarah’s law means that nobody can possibly tell the OP what she can or can’t find out.

Claire’s law is for adults to be able to do a background check on a partner to see whether they have previous convictions against a partner. Nothing to do with child abuse and only a partner can request one.

Sarahs law is to check whether someone has a history of child abuse, someone can request one if their child is in that person’s presence, but the information from it very much varies from area to area.

I do also agree with @Nimbostratus100 · that the three year old’s wording sounds indicative of something else.

There’s no way a three year old is going to be able to tell someone word for word exactly what happened several months ago and be accurate about it. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s lying, he’s at the very least heard the wording from somewhere, but “hit around the head” isn’t three year old language.

OP does he go to nursery? Could he have heard this wording from another child who has heard it from a parent or older sibling?

How did the conversation emerge when he told you all this? Did you lead him in any way?

I’m not saying that this R is innocent, nobody knows. But talk of offering ultimatums and threatening the MIL that if she doesn’t break up with him she’ll never see the child again is over dramatic. It’s possible to minimise the child’s interaction with this man without having to go in all guns blazing based on an account of a three year old three months down the line using language which is not a child’s language.

I would be more concerned that this has happened somewhere else tbh or that he’s overheard someone telling someone that it’s happened to them.

I’ve been very careful not to lead him in my questioning and to not ask him too many times so he thinks I’m not getting the answer I’m looking for and then tells me what he thinks I want to hear.
It’s so difficult because I want to ask more questions but don’t want to make it a bigger deal than he thinks it is? I mean, to me it’s a massive deal and to him, he obviously knows it’s wrong and it’s playing on his mind. I just don’t want him to form it as a memory if I keep asking him about it, if that makes any sense at all?!
I also don’t want him to think he’s being punished by not being able to go round to his nans house now that he’s told me.

OP posts:
ehb102 · 18/02/2023 19:21

CRB and DBS checks are not any kind of gold standard. Many abusers go uncharged.

Amazing how many people think the fact they feel safe having sex with someone means that person is a fit person to take care of children. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't let your child go to MIL without you ever again.

MadamArcati99 · 18/02/2023 19:41

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 18:17

This is terrible advice. The OP has no idea what happened but has a gut feeling, as we all have with our children. If MIL witnessed the assault (that’s what it is), she won’t admit it because she knows the implications, which is why she’s only admitting to hearing a telling off. If the child was hit and MIL witnessed it and backed up her partner, this explains why the child doesn’t want to see either of them, and his behaviour in the months prior to telling what happened, bears out that something happened to traumatise him.

This man appeared out of nowhere, moved in with MIL after a month of ‘talking’ and turned up with no belongings. That’s a huge red flag - he probably isn’t the axe murderer some are making him out to be, but something isn’t right. The family know nothing about him and MIL has taken him at face value - OP doesn’t say whether she was recently widowed or divorced prior to this, but possibly circumstances around loneliness during lockdown played a part. So at the end of the day who do you trust ? A man you know nothing about and don’t particularly like/trust, or your DC ?

And by the way - an instance of accusing the OP of pinching him when she got hold of his arm awkwardly doesn’t give him a ‘track record’ of lying. It depends on perspective. The OP had a gut feeling about this man and her DS hasn’t wanted to see his GM despite previously doting on her. The OP has witnessed for herself a degree of intolerance of her DS on the part of this man. I would err on the side of caution and get a background check on this man so they know what they’re dealing with, and then make a decision based on that. We’re talking about the wellbeing/safety of a child here. Red flags everywhere.

Show quote history

I said she should be wary, but tehre is far, far from any concrete evidence .

It really boils down to who is the most likely to be lying, the MIL of the 3 year old?

I do not necessarily agree that most women would side with a relatively new partner who abused their grandchild over their own son and his toddler. I mean , would you?

I think it is absolutely plausible that the child didn t want to see them because they had both told him off for being naughty. He is used to her doting on him and this must have come as a shock. I doubt he would be against nanny unless she had done something to him .

None of us on here know any of the characters involved and this may have happened ,and you should certainly be very cautious going forward, but the fact is we do know for sure that one of the people involved has form for lying

MadamArcati99 · 18/02/2023 19:44

and i am sorry but 'gut feelings' are very over-rated, you do not have to look far on MN to see the endless procession of MNers whose 'gut feeling' has let them down badly in their choice of life partner!

paulhollywoodshairgel · 18/02/2023 19:52

How did your DH react? I would have to be held back from ripping his throat out. I really hope your mil is outraged and kicks him out.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 19:53

BubblingRage · 18/02/2023 19:12

I’ve been very careful not to lead him in my questioning and to not ask him too many times so he thinks I’m not getting the answer I’m looking for and then tells me what he thinks I want to hear.
It’s so difficult because I want to ask more questions but don’t want to make it a bigger deal than he thinks it is? I mean, to me it’s a massive deal and to him, he obviously knows it’s wrong and it’s playing on his mind. I just don’t want him to form it as a memory if I keep asking him about it, if that makes any sense at all?!
I also don’t want him to think he’s being punished by not being able to go round to his nans house now that he’s told me.

Show quote history

This is ringing less and less likely to me

3 years olds dont react like this to a slap. They dont know its wrong, itr doesnt play on their mind, and they are more likely to become MORE affectionate to an abuser, rather than less

3 year old also dont have this kind of memory

OP, I really think you have projected this onto your son. Maybe something is wrong, maybe your are mistaken, but whatever is the source of this, I really think you are barking up the wrong tree. Be careful around this man, but you have nothing to accuse him of,

Dont leave him there without you, why would you anyway?

Dont question him to the point where he is going to feel like he has to give some answer, any answer

Find out where he is hearing this aggressive and threatening language

I dont think you are going to listen to me, because I think you are enjoying your "bubblingrage" too much

I pointed out to you there are concerns ( around his language, not his memories of his grandmothers partner)

I cant do anything else, so Im out.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 19:54

MadamArcati99 · 18/02/2023 19:44

and i am sorry but 'gut feelings' are very over-rated, you do not have to look far on MN to see the endless procession of MNers whose 'gut feeling' has let them down badly in their choice of life partner!

they really are! 9/10 wrong

thismamayogi · 18/02/2023 19:57

MySugarBabyLove · 18/02/2023 19:05

I think the fact that people here don’t seem to know the difference between Clare’s law and Sarah’s law means that nobody can possibly tell the OP what she can or can’t find out.

Claire’s law is for adults to be able to do a background check on a partner to see whether they have previous convictions against a partner. Nothing to do with child abuse and only a partner can request one.

Sarahs law is to check whether someone has a history of child abuse, someone can request one if their child is in that person’s presence, but the information from it very much varies from area to area.

I do also agree with @Nimbostratus100 · that the three year old’s wording sounds indicative of something else.

There’s no way a three year old is going to be able to tell someone word for word exactly what happened several months ago and be accurate about it. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s lying, he’s at the very least heard the wording from somewhere, but “hit around the head” isn’t three year old language.

OP does he go to nursery? Could he have heard this wording from another child who has heard it from a parent or older sibling?

How did the conversation emerge when he told you all this? Did you lead him in any way?

I’m not saying that this R is innocent, nobody knows. But talk of offering ultimatums and threatening the MIL that if she doesn’t break up with him she’ll never see the child again is over dramatic. It’s possible to minimise the child’s interaction with this man without having to go in all guns blazing based on an account of a three year old three months down the line using language which is not a child’s language.

I would be more concerned that this has happened somewhere else tbh or that he’s overheard someone telling someone that it’s happened to them.

I’m sorry. It’s your job to believe your child. Sure, you may have to have an understanding of how they phrase stuff - my autistic teen has had aggressive outbursts where we have had to restrain her gently, which breaks my heart, but where a sibling could have been in danger. This hasn’t happened for a while thank God, but her memory of such times is often expressed as “you held me down!!” - not entirely true, but to her it is true, and that is how she feels and I have to honour her own interpretation of these events. And help her to make sense of what has happened.

my own three year old has a wild imagination and a wonderful way with words, but a mother knows her child. If my three year old told me someone out of my own sight had hit her, that is what happened and I act on that.

it is your job to believe your child.

ReneBumsWombats · 18/02/2023 19:57

3 years olds dont react like this to a slap. They dont know its wrong, itr doesnt play on their mind, and they are more likely to become MORE affectionate to an abuser, rather than less

How do you work that one out?

Eastereggsboxedupready · 18/02/2023 19:57

20 month gap could have been a spell in prison.
Have you Googled his name op? Even the removed bits. Right to the bottom of the entries... Older stuff at the bottom. When I was in the position of helping rehome a ddog I was emailing a very plausible bloke. Until Google told me he had been in jail for animal cruelty.. Did deep op. The thing about expecting mil to request Claire's law check will be getting her to admit her judgement could be wrong.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 20:00

Eastereggsboxedupready · 18/02/2023 19:57

20 month gap could have been a spell in prison.
Have you Googled his name op? Even the removed bits. Right to the bottom of the entries... Older stuff at the bottom. When I was in the position of helping rehome a ddog I was emailing a very plausible bloke. Until Google told me he had been in jail for animal cruelty.. Did deep op. The thing about expecting mil to request Claire's law check will be getting her to admit her judgement could be wrong.

MIL doesn’t have to do it - OP can request a background check herself based on concern for a friend or relative may have an abusive partner, or on the grounds that their own child is in contact with them.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 20:01

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 19:54

they really are! 9/10 wrong

Show quote history

Totally different to whether you suspect that your child has been abused !!

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 20:03

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 19:53

This is ringing less and less likely to me

3 years olds dont react like this to a slap. They dont know its wrong, itr doesnt play on their mind, and they are more likely to become MORE affectionate to an abuser, rather than less

3 year old also dont have this kind of memory

OP, I really think you have projected this onto your son. Maybe something is wrong, maybe your are mistaken, but whatever is the source of this, I really think you are barking up the wrong tree. Be careful around this man, but you have nothing to accuse him of,

Dont leave him there without you, why would you anyway?

Dont question him to the point where he is going to feel like he has to give some answer, any answer

Find out where he is hearing this aggressive and threatening language

I dont think you are going to listen to me, because I think you are enjoying your "bubblingrage" too much

I pointed out to you there are concerns ( around his language, not his memories of his grandmothers partner)

I cant do anything else, so Im out.

Show quote history

Utter codswallop. All of it. A child would become more affectionate to their abuser ? Really ? You seriously need to have a word with yourself.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 20:04

ReneBumsWombats · 18/02/2023 19:57

3 years olds dont react like this to a slap. They dont know its wrong, itr doesnt play on their mind, and they are more likely to become MORE affectionate to an abuser, rather than less

How do you work that one out?

maybe I am more highly trained in this area and have cared for more abused children than you?

Believe me, an account like this from a 3 year old, 2 months later, just doesnt hold water

The exact opposite is true of abused 3 year olds, they try very hard to get back into favour, they dont see their abusers behaviour as wrong in the slightest

If the child had come out and told their mum that very day, then maybe. If they were upset, and telling their mum why they were upset, then that is one thing. But a child this age doesnt have this sort of thing "play on their mind" and keep it secret knowing it was wrong, and then answer questions about it when asked. Honestly, if only we could just ask a 3 year old what happened to them before christmas that was wrong!!!! It just doesnt pan out like that.

Nimbostratus100 · 18/02/2023 20:05

anyway, leaving this thread now. People can carry on being outraged against this man - who could well be a nasty piece of work, no one here knows - but I have said all I am saying, and leaving you to it

Dillydollydingdong · 18/02/2023 20:05

Trouble is I'd be tempted to smack R around the head!

Caramelsmadfuzzytail · 18/02/2023 20:06

Slightly different scenario:
Ds2 (2 at the time) was playing without supervision, his sperm donor was asleep on the sofa, I was out shopping, older ds upstairs.
Ds2 decided to grab a bag of flour out of the pantry and upend it in the garden. Arshole sperm donor smacked him so hard, he still had a hand print an hour and a half later. Ds1 told me what had happened. I was rather impressed, that at 2 he had the wherewithal to take it outside.
I then proceeded to get into the arseholes face and told him, if he ever did it again I'd call the police myself.
A few months later, I left him. I found out then, that he'd also been an arsehole to ds1.
Ds2 has not seen his sperm donor since, I have told him an age appropriate truth and when people periodically ask if he wants to see the arsehole, his reply has always been 'only if there's bars between us.' He's 17 now.
In your situation I would make sure my child never went anywhere near "r" again and only allow your mother to see your child with you or your dh present.
Your family unit is more important.

FavouriteSlippers · 18/02/2023 20:07

What an absolute tosser.
If that ever happened to one of my dc by anybody. It wouldn't be a pretty picture, they'd get a lot more than a slap on the back of the head. And that would be before dh even got to them.

DotAndCarryOne2 · 18/02/2023 20:08

MadamArcati99 · 18/02/2023 19:41

I said she should be wary, but tehre is far, far from any concrete evidence .

It really boils down to who is the most likely to be lying, the MIL of the 3 year old?

I do not necessarily agree that most women would side with a relatively new partner who abused their grandchild over their own son and his toddler. I mean , would you?

I think it is absolutely plausible that the child didn t want to see them because they had both told him off for being naughty. He is used to her doting on him and this must have come as a shock. I doubt he would be against nanny unless she had done something to him .

None of us on here know any of the characters involved and this may have happened ,and you should certainly be very cautious going forward, but the fact is we do know for sure that one of the people involved has form for lying

Show quote history

I do not necessarily agree that most women would side with a relatively new partner who abused their grandchild over their own son and his toddler. I mean , would you?

Given that MIL knew this man for one month before throwing caution to the wind and moving him into her home, and that he turned up with no belongings which didn’t set any alarm bells ringing with her, I wouldn’t trust her judgement on anything, let alone the welfare of a three year old boy. If she’s that desperate to find and keep a partner, she’ll find a reason to back him up.

TicketBoo23 · 18/02/2023 20:08

I do not necessarily agree that most women would side with a relatively new partner who abused their grandchild over their own son and his toddler. I mean , would you?

Would you move a stranger you'd been chatting to for a month into your home, with the clothes on his back?

(And debts avd a 20 month employment gap).