TW - AIBU to be worried about inappropriate play?

[Lookingforanswers1234]

Looking for perspectives and advice here. I have 2 DC, one a toddler and one a baby.

My FIL has looked after DC1 for one day a week since about 12 months old, so almost 2 years now. This was at FIL’s suggestion.

Over the past year I’ve gradually cut that back to just an afternoon, for various reasons, and have found the arrangement trying. FIL is not happy about reduced time.

Lately I’ve had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that something may not be right, that I can’t shift, but I have nothing ‘solid’ to go on.

A few examples of things that are odd include:

• DC cried hysterically when FIL picked them up from preschool recently, said “he made me sad, I wanted to see you Mummy”. FIL seemed very angry about it. I’ve never seen my child that upset. DC also didn’t want FIL to look at them or come anywhere near them. DC is potty trained but wet themselves constantly all of that afternoon.
• FIL once bit their finger, a couple of months ago, when they were ‘playing’. I was napping upstairs with baby and DC came upstairs and said (name) bit my finger. There was a mark on DC’s finger and FIL said oh yes, we were Playing and it was an accident.
• They ‘play’ in a physical way, tickling, playing ‘doggies’ and rough-housing.
• DC has lately had ‘big’ reactions with FIL, saying ‘No’ and shouting repeatedly when they are playing.
• the other week I walked around the corner and the baby had crawled onto his crotch when he was sitting down. The baby being there wasn’t the problem, because babies do climb on people, it was the fact that he had his hands back and let the baby climb over his crotch and then start to pull up to stand, and he only moved the baby away very quickly when I came into the room. He had a funny look on his face. It just didn’t sit well with me.
• the latest afternoon he was over, DC came upstairs when I was having a nap with baby and made it clear they did not want to be around FIL anymore. FIL seemed annoyed when I said I would take DC out for a walk by myself while he kept an ear out for the baby who was napping. I heard him parrot what DC said in a mocking voice, when he thought I couldn’t hear.

I have had repeated conversations with FIL about certain boundaries e.g. screen time. He has repeatedly outright ignored these things and a couple of times challenged me, saying that he believes that children should be free to make their own choices and shouldn’t be coerced into things e.g. wearing shoes to go outside in freezing cold weather. DC is not even 3. I have limited contact partially because I can’t trust him to stick to things that my DH and I have agreed. DH agrees on the boundaries that we have set and has had a word to FIL about keeping to these. Aside from that, DH feels I can be too critical of his DD.

FIL is a bit eccentric. By his own admission he does not pick up on social cues and believes himself to be on the spectrum.

I mentioned the hysterical crying and afternoon of soiling/wetting to a family member, who immediately said that it would be a red flag for her and it’s been on my mind since then. What I can’t work out is whether I’m being too paranoid/anxious and overprotective, or whether these things are genuine red flags that anyone should rightly be concerned about. Some of these examples could just be that DC has had enough and wants time with their mum!

The thought of being right makes me feel sick, as does the thought of being wrong. These things may all be nothing on their own, but it’s starting to add up and I’ve had this on my mind overnight. I need some perspective.

So AIBU?

Whatever the reason, your DC is very unhappy in FIL care and this is not just about one bad day.

I would not be leaving him in his care. Supervised only. For other reasons (diagnosed personality disorder/emotion abuse) I don't let my mum have mine unsupervised. She tries to minupulate this all the time, but as a parent I put my DC first - she will have to like it or lump it.

I also think mocking children is really mean and I would not like that at all.

OP you've updated with a really sensible response and that's great. Your Fil could be up to something or he could not, you don't know but your instinct is right and your child is unhappy and that's enough.

However I just want to point out for anyone else reading that a previous poster suggested asking your child questions such as 'did anything bad happen?'. Please don't do this. In cases of suspected abuse (and I'm not saying that is the case here or that it isn't) children can only be interviewed once and this is best left to professionals well trained in such matters who can evidence it properly (the police in other words). Open questions are fine (how did you get that bruise?) but definitely no leading questions. OP you're fine, you've been asking open questions and your child has been giving you straight forward answers, but just in case anyone else is reading who is in, or finds themselves in, a similar situation (god forbid I know but sadly it happens).

Fwiw OP I always got the creeps from my ex fil after the birth of my first DC. It turned out to be justified and he not only threatened violence towards me but turned up at my house when he thought I would be alone after my ex and I split up (he got quite the shock when my dad answered the door!) All because he wanted to make sure I was going to be cowed into letting him see 'his' grandchild whenever he wanted. I had never said that he wouldn't he just jumped straight to threats and intimidation out of ownership over my baby. Instinct is good. Instinct keeps us safe. Wishing you all the best as you navigate this (and really really hoping that it's not a case of serious abuse) and I hope your DH comes around soon

@LikeSpinningPlates Thank you x
@PlumbleCrumble That is good parenting! You’re exactly right. Your children come first. Your mother’s wishes really don’t.

OP just be aware that contacting NSPCC can set in motion a train that is almost unstoppable

Sometimes children won't like a relative for an innocent reason - eg being loud or too in their face, however that alone is enough to limit contact to when you're there.
Hopefully that is the case here, but you need to find out to decide whether to stop contact, report him and get support for your dc, or whether you just need to supervise contact.

For the love of god listen to your gut.

I don’t how what the procedure is…but no unsupervised contact.

I don’t know if there is a way to do it discretely (I.e. without making an accusation first) but maybe get a psychologist/psychiatrist that specialises in children abuse to evaluate DC?

good luck 🤞

Your gut instinct is there for a bloody reason, Op

You Need to Trust it,

Listen to gut instinct and common sense if it does not feel right,

It feels iffy dodgy,
Then it is what it is,

Stop having contact with your child with your father in law,

Only have supervised contact if any

Either extremely low contact or no contact whatsever Op

It's a no brained really

Your father is bloody weird and obnoxiously turd/git ect

What was your husbands childhood like then?

Just stop all contact now!

Lots of pp have mentioned the biting of his finger, which is of course awful. No chance they were playing - you do not leave bite marks unless significant force has been applied for a period of time - ie. More than five seconds. The child would have protested or been crying sooner than that.

But the baby climbing over his crotch - and him languishing there whilst he does?! This sends shivers down my spine. Any normal adult would at least sit up and change position, or move the baby slightly?!

Please please no unsupervised contact ever

x

Instincts of a parent are very very rarely wrong. You don't have to rationalise it or understand it. If you feel it's wrong you have to deal with it.

im so sorry you went through this.hope your ok and healing somewhat.

op your doing the right thing.if there is nothing there is nothing. and you will soon see regarding how your dc behaviour now is. he will also be begging to see them if he wishes to.
it could all be coincidence.
if hes on the spectryum his movements and behaviours could seem a little unlike how wed think them to be. my uncle is on the spectrum and treats dc like hes a melon hes been handed at the supermarket sometimes! it can look curious,suspicious and uncertain.
but the distress doesnt fit. a child wouldnt obviously always pick up on someone with the spectrum and would just climb akl over them and behave as normal. so being distressed and not wanting to see them is a red flag.
or it could be his age and this is just a "thing" right now, but still your being guided by your dc and his wellbeing and right now its saying keep away. completely fair enough.innocent or not.
you dont force children to see people that makes them distressed whether they are guilty of something sinister or not.

But 3 year olds can feel fear /extreme terror.

You can speak to them anonymously...
OP I'd definitely speak informally to NSPCC.

I worked in child protection for some years. The account you provide and your husband's minimisation... Is VERY worrying.

Please trust your gut.

Until you have spoken to professionals, I'd have zero contact...

People rarely understand what 'proper' supervised contact looks like...

If there is ANY suspicion of sex assault... You don't take your eyes off the child /potential abuser... You don't leave them alone AT ALL. (i used to be employed at one point doing supervised contact for thr courts.)

It takes seconds for abuse to tale place.

Abusers are very underhand.

Eg you cannot go to the loo/make a cuppa. (take the kid with you if you must leave the room, however short).

Never let the potential abuser between you and the child even if in same room.

Our team worked a case where a 6year old was digitally penetrated whilst in the same room as her parents sitting 10 feet away. Horrible.

OP you are absolutely right to trust your instincts on this. As others have said it is clear that your child isn't happy and that is a good enough reason to give to your FIL.

Massive red flags

Also the fact he is so keen to have her is strange

“I heard him parrot what DC said in a mocking voice, when he thought I couldn’t hear.”
This on its own would weird me out and DC would not be spending any more time with this man.
You can’t be sure what goes on when you’re not there, and if your DC could speak how would you justify leaving them with this very odd man-baby when you hold valid suspicions about his conduct? I sometimes reframe situations into this context to help me make decisions.
You can make the change now, from this very day, and never leave your DC alone with him again.

Hi op I think your husband is scared of his Dad who sounds a bully actually.
Well done for posting and seeking help.
Yes stop any unsupervised contact and I’d really be mindful of your partner taking the children to see his Dad alone. The FIL may try and engineer this.
Tell your partner the conversation is over. You have decided this is what’s best for your children.
Im curious what type of father your partners Dad was to him? Well actually it doesn’t matter - he’s not a healthy man.
🌺

Your H is putting his own feelings and those of his dad, who has behaved inappropriately, ahead of the very vocal feelings of his child. And that is not good. You’re on your own with this it seems. But you must protect your child. I’d fear that if anything escalated with the FIL, if his behaviour towards the child worsened/became more extreme, your H still won’t believe your child/you or be on your side. And that’s a real concern.

I was about to suggest NSPCC as well.

I think you need to trust your instincts. At best he is a bully who doesn’t respect your parenting boundaries and who makes your DC feel uncomfortable.

Statistically, most children are abused by a family member. It’s far more common than most people realise. Call the NSPCC for advice and never leave your children alone with him.

Listen to your gut.

STOP the visits. End of.

Your children's well being / mental state is being sacrificed for an eccentric old man, at the very least... or it could be worse.

Put an end to it.

Omg stop all contact. What are you even doing ?!? Always Always err on the side of caution. The most depraved actions happen within families. Just stop.

Not at all, this is absolutely what your gut instincts are for. All too often we dismiss them and in hindsight wish we'd listen to them. Trust me, in my job I hear that a lot. Your children are telling you in their different ways that things are not ok or acceptable for them. Another thing I hear in my job alot - I wish my mum/dad had listened.

So he's putting his dad's feelings above his children's?

Please put a halt to this! There’s smt not right here. I do a lot of research in relevant areas - the red flags here are blowing. Particularly worrying are the crotch incident, and the “children should be free…”.

it might be hard to do this. You might get flack. But listen to your gut and be your child’s advocate. Please!