TW - AIBU to be worried about inappropriate play?

[Lookingforanswers1234]

Looking for perspectives and advice here. I have 2 DC, one a toddler and one a baby.

My FIL has looked after DC1 for one day a week since about 12 months old, so almost 2 years now. This was at FIL’s suggestion.

Over the past year I’ve gradually cut that back to just an afternoon, for various reasons, and have found the arrangement trying. FIL is not happy about reduced time.

Lately I’ve had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that something may not be right, that I can’t shift, but I have nothing ‘solid’ to go on.

A few examples of things that are odd include:

• DC cried hysterically when FIL picked them up from preschool recently, said “he made me sad, I wanted to see you Mummy”. FIL seemed very angry about it. I’ve never seen my child that upset. DC also didn’t want FIL to look at them or come anywhere near them. DC is potty trained but wet themselves constantly all of that afternoon.
• FIL once bit their finger, a couple of months ago, when they were ‘playing’. I was napping upstairs with baby and DC came upstairs and said (name) bit my finger. There was a mark on DC’s finger and FIL said oh yes, we were Playing and it was an accident.
• They ‘play’ in a physical way, tickling, playing ‘doggies’ and rough-housing.
• DC has lately had ‘big’ reactions with FIL, saying ‘No’ and shouting repeatedly when they are playing.
• the other week I walked around the corner and the baby had crawled onto his crotch when he was sitting down. The baby being there wasn’t the problem, because babies do climb on people, it was the fact that he had his hands back and let the baby climb over his crotch and then start to pull up to stand, and he only moved the baby away very quickly when I came into the room. He had a funny look on his face. It just didn’t sit well with me.
• the latest afternoon he was over, DC came upstairs when I was having a nap with baby and made it clear they did not want to be around FIL anymore. FIL seemed annoyed when I said I would take DC out for a walk by myself while he kept an ear out for the baby who was napping. I heard him parrot what DC said in a mocking voice, when he thought I couldn’t hear.

I have had repeated conversations with FIL about certain boundaries e.g. screen time. He has repeatedly outright ignored these things and a couple of times challenged me, saying that he believes that children should be free to make their own choices and shouldn’t be coerced into things e.g. wearing shoes to go outside in freezing cold weather. DC is not even 3. I have limited contact partially because I can’t trust him to stick to things that my DH and I have agreed. DH agrees on the boundaries that we have set and has had a word to FIL about keeping to these. Aside from that, DH feels I can be too critical of his DD.

FIL is a bit eccentric. By his own admission he does not pick up on social cues and believes himself to be on the spectrum.

I mentioned the hysterical crying and afternoon of soiling/wetting to a family member, who immediately said that it would be a red flag for her and it’s been on my mind since then. What I can’t work out is whether I’m being too paranoid/anxious and overprotective, or whether these things are genuine red flags that anyone should rightly be concerned about. Some of these examples could just be that DC has had enough and wants time with their mum!

The thought of being right makes me feel sick, as does the thought of being wrong. These things may all be nothing on their own, but it’s starting to add up and I’ve had this on my mind overnight. I need some perspective.

So AIBU?

Exactly how many times have you ever heard adult saying 'I bit the child accidentally'?
Reading your post made me feel ill. Please don't question your reaction.

That is why so many of them get away with it. It is an unthinkable act and people cannot imagine some one they know doing anything so vile. Your OH would rather stick his head in the sand than consider it is a possibility.

• DH

Absolutely follow your gut instinct here. Sod what the adults think, you’re doing what you feel is best for your child and that’s all that matters. It’s a really delicate situation as you can’t outright say what you’re thinking so you could just say preschool feel she needs more socialisation or something like that so she’s going in to nursery more.

Theres an adult in my childrens life that I have a bad feeling about and it’s so difficult to navigate so I completely get where you’re coming from. Even harder when your husband isn’t supporting you.

Re your husband, as previous posters have said is he potentially repressing some memories? Ask him how he would feel if this was another relative related to you, would he continue to allow them to see your child? Probably not (or I’d like to think he wouldn’t).

Gosh, OP, the mimicking would be enough to do it for me.

I agree with those saying just to say to DH that they aren’t happy. No need to speculate on anything.

Do not leave your children with this man. Not ever. Not even to go to the bathroom. In fact I'd stop all contact and tell him why.

I don’t know if I’m misinterpreting it, but the link seems to conclude that soiling shouldn’t be considered an indicator of CSA.

The predictive utility of fecal soiling as an indicator of sexual abuse in children is not supported. Soiling seems to represent one of many stress-induced dysregulated behaviors. Clinicians should assume the symptom of soiling is most likely related to the typical pathology and treat accordingly.

I must admit it’s surprising if that’s the case, as I thought it was a classic sign.

There are huge red flags all over this!

One example: An adult biting a child is sadism. You cannot leave your child with a sadist, what the hell are you doing?

Your children are telling you passionately that they aren’t ok, why in earth aren’t you listening? Most children love spending time with their grandparents, clearly something is terribly wrong here.

Truth is, he’s probably a paedophile. Baby ‘crawled into his crotch by itself’ yeah right.

Please start protecting your children and either do the childcare yourself or get a professional.

Is your child a good talker? Create a safe space for them and see if they talk about it. Either way there are alarm bells and I would stop contact.
It might be worth asking your child if anything bad has happened. A change in behaviour is a big indicator, tummy aches, clingyness etc

TRUST YOUR GUT, Please.

I feel nauseous just reading all that.

I think it's vital that we teach children that their autonomy should be respected and upheld at all times, by all people. If you don't listen to your child when they are clearly telling and showing you that they are not comfortable (regardless of the reason) having time alone with fil and you continue to let that happen then you are letting your child know that a) if they speak up about something that feels wrong, nothing will happen and noone will listen and b) his parents don't have his back over extended family so do they have his back with other people too.

I know that sounds harsh but it's true and your dh needs to realise that you and his children come first and foremost over everyone no matter what. He can't compromise his child's wellbeing to keep his dad happy. And his reaction is actually very unfair to you, yes it's uncomfortable and awkward but you as his Co parent have every right to bring it up with him if you have concerns about your child's welfare and he needs to hear you.

I'd be allowing no further unsupervised contact with fil (to be honest I'd even struggle with that but I think it's worth trialling to see if your kids are happier with that). I would not be going back to unsupervised contact at any point. I would also not be allowing him access to your baby, just because they are too little to say they are uncomfortable doesn't mean they are feeling safe with him. This is a hill to die on, do not back down.

Reading your posts it sounds like fil is actually almost gaslighting you undermining your parenting and disrespecting you it makes me question his motivation for that. His opinion on how kids should be raised counts for nothing- they are not his kids and what you say goes. It sounds like this is true to form and dh has maybe bought into this manipulation in the past for an easy life and fil knows it abs is exploiting his sons inability to stand up to him. He a toxic parent and your dh maybe just hasn't worked that out yet.

P.s you can also speak to the school and say you're noticing increased anxiety from your child but haven't been able to pinpoint the reason why just yet ( even though you have a good gut feeling why) and I'd ask if there's any additional support your son could get. For eg women's aid run helping hands programmes in schools which teaches kids how to ask for help if something is wrong and that just because someone is family doesn't mean you need to trust them instead they learn to tune into their gut and work out their safe people that way. Or some schools offer meditations for kids and mindfulness exercises and play therapy through a few different avenues depending on where you are. I think it would be good to put it on their radar so you can get a full picture and it might back you up with dh if they have concerns too.

This ^ is good advice, but personally I’d remove anything even slightly subjective. Abusers will try and manipulate you, your feelings will be fair game. (Not saying you won’t stand firm, but why make your life harder…)

Change the pick up arrangements etc, alert nursery that the children are NOT to be picked up by FIL, send a photo etc.

If asked for an explanation by DH or FIL just insist:

“This works better for me and the children”. Fact.

Until your DH is prepared to engage with a conversation, then you just set the boundary and stick to it:

FIL has no contact unless you are present.

If pushed you could say:

“It causes them and me distress”. Fact.

Your DH will probably argue that it doesn’t, you’re paranoid and unreasonable etc. If you need help talking to him about your worries, or what constitutes a red flag, try NSPCC and see what advice they might offer.

Don't justify, argue, defend or explain to FIL - it’s a trap (look up JADE). Trickier with DH, but if he tries to talk/guilt/manipulate you out of your decision then take the same approach with him.

Also useful to look up DARVO - forewarned is forearmed.

good luck 💐

This.

I just wanted to say as a child who was really close to getting raped. I clung onto my mum and behaved how your child is behaving saying I didn't want to be around so and so. I felt too ashamed to say what really happened aged 3 but I felt like someone was in my personal space and there were signs that my mum was too busy to understand me. Sad but true. Trust you're instincts and keep him away.

It sounds like he makes you uncomfortable and you and the kids don't really enjoy his company that much. Just meet with him socially, no need for alone time with the kids and no need to dwell on it too much either. It's impossible for us to say whether he's a real risk or just a little odd.

I'd limit all contact to supervised only. Exercise caution, observe. Children don't seem to like him (are they OK with other family members? ) and that's enough.

But the pedophile conclusions have gone too far here. For a three year old to cry, wet, soil themselves as a result of SA, FIL would have to be physically hurting them (toddlers can't perceive inappropriate comments, touching, photos, grooming) . If the suspicion is really that heavy, then time for a doctors visit.

I'm not saying the FIL isn't /couldn't be an abuser but this thread has gone from 12 to 100 in a split second.

I was groomed by an elderly man when I was 10. I couldn't tell at all the signs until he actually kissed and touched me. So no, I don't think a 3 year old would find an adult's company distressing due to something "inappropriate" going on.

It's either not serious but strange (enough for supervised contact for a while), or serious abuse.

I would minimise contact altogether and NEVER allow 1 minute of unsupervised contact EVER again. Something very weird or very bad is happening.

DC came upstairs when I was having a nap with baby and made it clear they did not want to be around FIL anymore. FIL seemed annoyed when I said I would take DC out for a walk by myself while he kept an ear out for the baby who was napping

And what the hell is this about??? Told you to go for a walk and leave him alone with the baby?? Seriously!! The older vocal child is making too big of a fuss so he wanted to be alone with the younger less vocal child?? I really really hope you are a troll. I was abused by men when younger because my parents were neglectful and left me vulnerable and this makes me feel sick. Going by the information in your OP I’d find it hard to believe he isn’t a paedophile. Wake up, grow a back bone and look after your kids.

Here we go...

Someone so determined to find paedophiles round every corner they've completely misread perfectly clear writing.

The OP decided to take their DC out for a walk. The OP's FIL did NOT 'tell' her to do this to give him an opportunity to do something to the baby, in fact he appeared annoyed at being left with the baby.

OP - the relevant facts are that your FIL behaves inappropriately in the way he mocks your child/you, doesn't follow instructions/rules and generally seems a bit of an arsehole.

Your child currently seems unhappy to spend time with him, and is showing significant behaviour changes and is telling you they don't want to spend time with him.

It is reasonable for them to NOT spend time with him unsupervised at this point.

This doesn't mean he is a paedophile, nor does it mean he is not one - it means at the minute, your DC is the important person here, their feelings and needs take priority!

You need to remove your children today and take them to a gp (the Americans call them a paediatrician) ASAP.
don’t dilly dally around. Your children are crying, wetting themselves. What more do you need ? 🙄
Do you need to catch him before you act?
your baby was crawling on him and by your worlds, gave you a funny look? FFS

YANBU
I hope your dh will be able to see it when he’s calmed down. Your ds is obviously very distressed and even if nothing untoward did take place, he doesn’t want to be with your fil. You could talk to the NSPCC? I know there’s a certain way to ask questions, which aren’t leading. I really hope this is just a case of your fil being eccentric. www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/reporting-abuse/what-if-suspect-abuse/

@WiddlinDiddlin had summed it up perfectly.

And can I just remind you that if nursery pick up on any of this they will rightly have no choice but to instigate a safeguarding concern which will be explored.Protect your children at any and all costs. They cannot do that themselves. Tell their father about your very valid concerns and stand firm. Do not expose your children at any time to this weirdo. This has bothered me all night tbh.

I'd stop unsupervised contact immediately. As a people pleaser though, I'd gradually phase out contact. At first I'd go with DC to FIL's house every week day afternoon they were meant to go, and stay with them. Then after a couple of weeks, I'd start having to cancel them because I had something else on. Gradually I'd reduce the visits.