TW - AIBU to be worried about inappropriate play?

[Lookingforanswers1234]

Looking for perspectives and advice here. I have 2 DC, one a toddler and one a baby.

My FIL has looked after DC1 for one day a week since about 12 months old, so almost 2 years now. This was at FIL’s suggestion.

Over the past year I’ve gradually cut that back to just an afternoon, for various reasons, and have found the arrangement trying. FIL is not happy about reduced time.

Lately I’ve had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that something may not be right, that I can’t shift, but I have nothing ‘solid’ to go on.

A few examples of things that are odd include:

• DC cried hysterically when FIL picked them up from preschool recently, said “he made me sad, I wanted to see you Mummy”. FIL seemed very angry about it. I’ve never seen my child that upset. DC also didn’t want FIL to look at them or come anywhere near them. DC is potty trained but wet themselves constantly all of that afternoon.
• FIL once bit their finger, a couple of months ago, when they were ‘playing’. I was napping upstairs with baby and DC came upstairs and said (name) bit my finger. There was a mark on DC’s finger and FIL said oh yes, we were Playing and it was an accident.
• They ‘play’ in a physical way, tickling, playing ‘doggies’ and rough-housing.
• DC has lately had ‘big’ reactions with FIL, saying ‘No’ and shouting repeatedly when they are playing.
• the other week I walked around the corner and the baby had crawled onto his crotch when he was sitting down. The baby being there wasn’t the problem, because babies do climb on people, it was the fact that he had his hands back and let the baby climb over his crotch and then start to pull up to stand, and he only moved the baby away very quickly when I came into the room. He had a funny look on his face. It just didn’t sit well with me.
• the latest afternoon he was over, DC came upstairs when I was having a nap with baby and made it clear they did not want to be around FIL anymore. FIL seemed annoyed when I said I would take DC out for a walk by myself while he kept an ear out for the baby who was napping. I heard him parrot what DC said in a mocking voice, when he thought I couldn’t hear.

I have had repeated conversations with FIL about certain boundaries e.g. screen time. He has repeatedly outright ignored these things and a couple of times challenged me, saying that he believes that children should be free to make their own choices and shouldn’t be coerced into things e.g. wearing shoes to go outside in freezing cold weather. DC is not even 3. I have limited contact partially because I can’t trust him to stick to things that my DH and I have agreed. DH agrees on the boundaries that we have set and has had a word to FIL about keeping to these. Aside from that, DH feels I can be too critical of his DD.

FIL is a bit eccentric. By his own admission he does not pick up on social cues and believes himself to be on the spectrum.

I mentioned the hysterical crying and afternoon of soiling/wetting to a family member, who immediately said that it would be a red flag for her and it’s been on my mind since then. What I can’t work out is whether I’m being too paranoid/anxious and overprotective, or whether these things are genuine red flags that anyone should rightly be concerned about. Some of these examples could just be that DC has had enough and wants time with their mum!

The thought of being right makes me feel sick, as does the thought of being wrong. These things may all be nothing on their own, but it’s starting to add up and I’ve had this on my mind overnight. I need some perspective.

So AIBU?

Supervised visits only. Stay in the room during visits, this sounds wrong on many levels. Listen to your child. Esp don't like the wetting himself.
Try talking to your DC to see if he can tell you what's happened with your FIL.

I'm surprised people are suggesting supervised visits. At best, this man has behaved inappropriately with your small child and your child is very distressed. It's not about pandering to the needs of your inappropriate FIL. Please take advice and give your child's needs priority. This is your only job here really.

You could use FIL's own words, that children 'should make their own choices and shouldn't be coerced into anything.'
They've chosen not to see him and you won't be making it happen.

This. A hard no if he starts to challenge your decision.

Don't your your husband make you feel bad either. Get him to open up about his childhood. Things may have happened to him that he hasn't realised are inappropriate.

Stop unsupervised contact.

At best he is a) nasty and b) not following your requests regarding care of your children. That itself should be sufficient to end the current set up.

Your child is telling you how unhappy they are. Listen to them.

You have made the right choice, OP. Your husband will come around. It’s understandable that he’s upset - imagine if the conversation were reversed!

The circumstantial evidence seems creepy. The actual evidence is next to none. But you can’t wait for any evidence, you have to act on gut. Well done for identifying it and advocating for your children.

Apologies OP just back from holiday last night. Very long journey. I misread your OP and thought he had insisted on you going on the walk leaving him alone with second child. I was quite harsh on you. My opinion of him has not changed though. I’d slash contact. Good luck

@WiddlinDiddlin Unfortunately there are paedophiles around every corner.

I wasn't believed as a child, I was taken to the doctor and as there was no penatrive evidence, I was accused of lying. Its left me with huge problems as I had blocked this out till my 30's. All of a sudden it felt like I had crashed into a wall. The resentment, the anger and the betrayal.

I'm not saying your FIL is a paedophile but I think k he could be physically and mentally unpleasant to your child. The mimicking, the biting of the finger. How your child gets so upset in seeing him he wets himself. These are signs your child is scared and upset. Please cut all unsupervised visits.

if she stops ALL contact with FIL her DH might decide to overrule her and do unsupervised visits at FIL House. Its better to reduce slowly with supervised contact. DH cannot argue with that as his child is still seeing his father. OP is in a difficult position

I’ve read this before, maybe a year ago. Exact same scenario. And if that was you then op, and you’ve still not done anything to stop your kids being near this man than that is terrible.

You don't accidentally bite someone.

So worrying your DC's reaction to him. Children generally adore their grandparents, not cry and wet themselves around them!

How can you even look at your husband knowing he is happy for your child to be distressed for you FIL sake. I'd be telling both of them to bugger off.

Thank you all again for the messages. I’ve read every one. My plan is no more unsupervised access, very minimal totally supervised access. My child is very verbal and articulate, says that they like this grandparent and thinks they are fun, but then displays different behaviour during a visit. A possibility is that when the grandparent is around, they are okay for a bit, and then once they’ve had enough, there can be tears or bigger reactions. 90% of the time, I’m home. In the first 12 months or so I was wfh, then after that have been on mat leave, so almost always there. I do step in if and when I feel they've had enough and advocate on their behalf with the grandparent. When I have seen or heard bigger reactions, I’ve spoken to child one on one afterwards and asked some open questions, asked if they’re okay, and all of the answers make sense. The answers are things like I’d had enough, or I wanted to see you, or I wanted a nap. I realise that these answers could be taken at face value, or there could be more to it.

Kids this age can have big reactions. As for the soiling, wetting, that was acute, on one afternoon, after a morning session at a preschool. There has been occasional soiling or wetting over the months, but this coincided with potty training in the summertime.

DH still very, very annoyed with me today. Thinks I’m throwing the baby out with the bath water and v worried about hurting his dad’s feelings and shutting him out. Part of DH’s reaction could be that having his dad around with me there to look after things has worked for my DH. His dad gets to be included but DH doesn’t have to deal with any of the grunt work. DH does find his dad irritating when he is the one around with him. Regardless I’m not backing down on this. I said if it was anyone else, you’d agree with me.

At worst, something may be going on. At best, I’ve got a toxic grandparent who doesn’t respect boundaries and has bitten my very small child’s finger and mimicked them. That alone is awful. And the very limited and supervised contact will not allow for anything like that ever again.

DC is going into more FT childcare soonish as I’m back to work in the coming months. So I can communicate this in a way that’s not accusing and also leaves no space for argument.

Thank you to the poster who shared about JADE and DARVO, this was very helpful. I’ve seen shades of this when this parenting philosophy has been brought up by FIL, wanting to enter into some debate with me and I’ve shut it down altogether, telling him it isn’t his place and it’s not up for discussion.

Thank you again all for sharing your views and experiences. I feel bolstered. This is a difficult topic to navigate.

Oh wow @VainAbigail. I’ve never posted a question on MN before, so it wasn’t me. I’m going to try to find the post.

I also remember the biting post. Just wanted to mention again how helpful the NSPCC helpline can be OP. Glad you've reached such clarity.

Thank you @kittybiscuits . I will call the helpline for perspective.

Glad you are standing firm on this. And you're right, if this was anyone else your DH wouldn't hesitate to cut contact. Can you imagine your DC was at a play date and the other child's parent bit their finger and mimicked them? He would be furious! It sounds like you DH has been affected by your FIL parenting too if he thinks this is ok.

Not RTFT but a million red flags are waving at me.. sorry..

This is not right. I work in a child safeguarding capacity and literally all of what you've said has given me alarm bells. I really don't want to worry you unnecessarily or make you feel bad but I honestly felt sick reading your post and I think something is wrong. I would end all supervised contact immediately. If you contact the NSPCC they can give you advice on how to talk to your child about grandad and help you to find out what's been happening from your child without asking leading questions, causing feelings of guilt, upset etc.

@AliceS1994 I felt much the same.. :-(

Really glad this thread has been a good source of support for you, and that JADE and DARVO are useful info to have.

I’m sorry you and your family are going through this. Well done for trusting your gut and standing firm - both are incredibly difficult to do.

Honestly OP DO NOT TAKE any chances.

Read it all back. You KNow.

I’m so sorry. Get your child out of this now.

I’m sorry 🍷has been taken tonight and I haven’t rtft. I see the conversation has moved on considerably and my post doesn’t really add anything. Apologies.

It just sounded alarming with the biting and the soiling and the strange look on his face.

Gut instinct is a powerful thing. I would go as far as to put cameras in the house to be honest. I would want to know that he couldn't get away with anything.

When kids can't communicate they use their bodies, your child wetting themselves (is this is out of character) is the biggest red flag something isn't right. Have you actually asked your child in an age appropriate way what kind of things grandad does when they play alone?

Horrendous things to be thinking about but your gut will never let you down. It will always keep you safe x

NEVER LET HIM BE ALONE WITH THEM AGAIN.
Your husband is clueless and naive. Listen to your gut and all the PPs telling you that this man is a mass of red flags. He frightens your children, they dislike him intensely, he’s hurt one of them. He’s aggressive. There are clear signs that something very wrong is happening when he’s with them.

I say this every time there’s one of these posts, because people seem to be appallingly naive: when I was little I was raped by a family member while others were in the house. I’ve never forgiven the adults who should have been protecting me, especially my parents. Keeping your stupid husband sweet is not worth the devastation that could be caused to your kids.

@FictionalCharacter 🪷💐
I’m so sorry and I share your opinion.

He’s a bad man OP.
It happens. Trust yourself and your instincts.