Manager said no to holiday request

[Buddythecat1]

I'm probably going to get my arse handed to me on a plate here but fck it.
I asked for two days off on Monday just passed
I asked 10 days in advance.
Just been told today that it's been refused.
I asked why, was told 'I don't know'

I am very hot headed and I have such strong temptation to walk put right now. (I have another thread about my contract if anybody cares)
I've been spoken to like shit by this manager, talked down to on a daily basis, I've been micromanaged.
I dread coming to work, I cry most days. Management allowed another employee to verbally abuse me and no consequences were ever brought to the other person.

Would I be totally unreasonable to walk out? The thought of never having to work in this place again gives me great relief. Or am I just being stupid and should suck it up

Have you been there for over 2 years OP?

I think it's harsh of employers to make people take annual leave for hospital appointments (within reason). But to refuse the leave altogether is madness - when do they think you can get another appointment?

If you have been there more then two years I'd simply take the day off. They would have to put you through a disciplinary and I can't imagine an employment tribunal would look kindly on them refusing you holiday for a hard to get hospital appointment.

As others have said:-

• they don't need to give a reason for refusing a leave request (although it really is bad form not to)
• they don't need to pay you for leave you elected not to take in previous calendar years (although they should have made you take a reasonable amount of leave during the course of the year. Again bad form on the part of your manager, the company, and the HR department if they have one)
• They should pay you for any leave outstanding if you leave, pro rata for the amount of days worked, or they can make you take it during your notice period.

I think the key here is that is sounds like a pretty awful culture, and a nob of a manager. Other jobs are available. It's easier to get a job from a job. Good luck with your interview, hopefully you'll be able to resign soon. Please try and resist the urge to give both barrels in an exit interview if you are invited to one, however definitely list out as unemotional as possible the reasons you are leaving.

Even if this interview doesn't come off, the job market is relatively buoyant at the moment.

I'm not playing any games
I have 2 managers, the first manager told me that the second manager said no to the holiday.
I didn't want to ask him as he intimidates me a lot and I would've ended up crying

I run a small business and there are times when I have to refuse leave. However there needs to be consideration on both sides and if it was for a medical appointment or something of similar importance then I'd try to come to some level of compromise.

But please don't phone in sick or get signed off. I'd be banned if I said what I think about people who do this.

Do you treat employees the way the OP is being treated?

Have you told them it's for a hospital appointment? If not, make them aware and ask them to reconsider.

They aren't in breach of any employment laws as a pp indicated, if you are in the UK. Leave entitlement is per year so if you have only taken 2 days in 6 months as long as you get the remaining statutory entitlement over the next 6 months that's fine (or pro rata if you joined half way through a leave year).

You aren't legally entitled to specific days off, only an amount of time off. Min of 28 days Inc bank Holidays for a full timer. Higher if contract says so. They are allowed to refuse leave requests if it doesn't suit business needs.

Whether 10 days notice is sufficient or not depends on the business. Only you know whether its reasonable or not.

I'd suggest speaking to them about it being for a hospital appt. I'd also suggest you start booking in the rest of your leave if you've only had 2 days off in 6 months otherwise you'll be made to take it at their convenience to ensure you do get your statutory amount.

9 days notice isn't short notice for 2 days leave.

It actually depends on the company policy. To you it's not, to a company it may be.

Then it's purposely done. Fuck that. Attend your hospital appt. Get a GP to sign you off with stress because your work sounds fuckin toxic.

All the luck for your interview on Friday x

How do you want to compromise on a medical appointment? Offer the hospital to perform colonoscopy in your office so the employee can go back to work after a short rest?
If the OP has a medical appointment, she should get time off without any need for a day off, especially if she can bring a confirmation of the time spent at the procedure.

I only have to give 7 days notice for annual leave. I don't think 10 days is short

That's another issue, I'm not allowed any more time off sick

medical appointments would not be counted as sick.
You are allowed time off for appointments but it will likely be unpaid.

You are allowed to have your annual leave, but you cannot demand to take it whenever you want, so it's not automatically bullying/illegal (the rest of the OP's post makes it clear why it's a crap place to work, but you need to pick your battles, not complain about the fact that you haven't had your AL request granted).

OP, check your employer's annual leave policies. Also, I hope you have a union, because this is the sort of thing that they are good for.

Doing a bit of research, it appears that there is no statutory entitlement to time off for a hospital appointment. However it is a poor employer that doesn't do what they can to facilitate it, especially if it's difficult to move it. It may be that once they know the reason for the request (and why it is quite short notice) they will relent and let you go. If you won't need the whole day, you could also offer that. If the appointment is related to your sickness at Christmas, you could point out that the sooner you get the appointment, the less risk of a repeat.

You might be able to rearrange the appointment, but there's no point in doing that only for them to turn that date down as well, so perhaps you need to go and talk to HR to establish why the leave was refused and when would be possible.

But that's your company. Other companies have different rules around holiday...

Sorry trying to answer all the questions.
There is a manager above my own 2 but I fear this would make matters worse for me, I'm scared to rock the boat hence I haven't asked further about my contract (see my other thread)
But yes about 3 weeks ago I was called in to a meeting and pretty much told they don't believe my reasons for having days off when I was genuinely unwell and the amount of days I've had off has triggered this investigation and if they find out I wasn't off for legit reasons, I will face a disciplinary based on misconduct.

So since then I've kept my head down, worked hard, gone above and beyond. Staying late when I can. They say jump I say how high.

But this manager (started about 2 months after me) I get the feeling he hates me, I walk om egg shell around him. One time he caught me sitting down and says I'm not entitled to a break because I'm still on a pt contract, so now I try not to take a break (doing 8 hr 45min shift). My mental health is wrecked from staying but I stayed because of the money and I had high hopes for a ft contract.
But I hate it, some times to not be caught sitting down, I sit in the toilets with a sandwich. I've never dreaded going to work before but I do every single day. Doesn't help that I was verbally abused by the other employee and they did naff all about it so now my relationship with the other employee is wrecked.

Legally the general notice period for taking leave is at least twice as long as the amount of leave an employee wants to take, plus one day. So for one days; leave you would give three days notice. So in your case you would have needed to give them five days - well within the time you asked.

Your employer can refuse a leave request or cancel leave but they must give as much notice as the amount of leave requested, plus 1 day. So in your case, your employer should have given you three days notice. However, if you have agreed something different at the time your contract was drawn up, then that will apply, so check it first. Providing you have given sufficient notice when asking for leave, your employer can only refuse it for clear business reasons, so it’s not enough for your manager to just give you a flat ‘no’ - he needs to tell you why it was refused and it has to be business related.

Although your employer can refuse to grant leave at a certain time - during busy times for example -they cannot refuse to let you take leave at all. You are entitled to minimum 28 days leave a year for rest and recuperation, and your employer has to allow at least that amount.

One final point, if you decide to leave, remember that you will have done so voluntarily and won’t be able to claim benefits, or may have sanctions applied for making yourself voluntarily unemployed.

Are u in a union? I have had similar and when I told them I was getting union in for the meeting all went quiet.

My contract says as much notice as possible

I don't think I'm in a union, is that something I have to sort?

And yes you aren't legally entitled to time off for a hospital appt but it's normally in their interest to let you go. If medical appt relates to an underlying health condition, not letting you go could be seen as failure to make a reasonable adjustment.

In terms of your sick leave they can't prevent you having any more. But they can take formal action if your absence level is unsustainable. If you've had 5 days fairly recently then you could well be at risk of being at that level although again depends on reasons for absence. If you have an underlying health condition they'd be daft not to be making adjustments, ensuring all support in place first.

Good luck with your interview.

I had 11 days on the sick. 4 of those were parental leave but they've lobbed it in with sick leave. Being genuine as this is what I was told by manager 1

One time he caught me sitting down and says I'm not entitled to a break because I'm still on a pt contract, so now I try not to take a break (doing 8 hr 45min shift).

You are entitled to one twenty minute break somewhere near the middle of the day if you work more than a six hour shift, so if you’re not getting one, they’re breaking the law. The break doesn’t have to be paid, that’s down to what is in your contract.

I'm on a part time contract, my contract was for 5 hour shifts, so I guess then he is correct?
I verbally work more hours

Then you need to comply with the legal minimum as in my post, and so does the employer.

10 days isn't enough, the hospital appt explain and ask for the time to attend unpaid, but I need to give 6 weeks notice and I'm sure 4 weeks is bare minimum