Manager said no to holiday request

[Buddythecat1]

I'm probably going to get my arse handed to me on a plate here but fck it.
I asked for two days off on Monday just passed
I asked 10 days in advance.
Just been told today that it's been refused.
I asked why, was told 'I don't know'

I am very hot headed and I have such strong temptation to walk put right now. (I have another thread about my contract if anybody cares)
I've been spoken to like shit by this manager, talked down to on a daily basis, I've been micromanaged.
I dread coming to work, I cry most days. Management allowed another employee to verbally abuse me and no consequences were ever brought to the other person.

Would I be totally unreasonable to walk out? The thought of never having to work in this place again gives me great relief. Or am I just being stupid and should suck it up

In over 50 years of working, in public, private and 3rd sectors, I have never worked anywhere where a month's notice is required before booking leave.

The later you leave it, the more chance there is of getting a leave request turned down because too many other people are off, but it's always been possible to book leave at short notice otherwise, especially if it's only a day or two.

That's illegal.

If your employer says you're not entitled to paid holiday
If you leave your job, you're entitled to be paid for any holiday you haven't taken. This can include holiday you've carried over from previous leave years. If your employer won't pay you for holiday you haven't taken, contact your nearest Citizens Advice

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/holidays-and-holiday-pay/check-if-youre-entitled-to-paid-holidays/

OP, I hope that your interview is successful as your current employer's attitude is bad for your health.
No job is worth this stress, really it isn't.
Good luck😉

You’ve had 11 days off in 26 weeks
you gave them very short notice for a/l

the majority of companies would investigate sick over the Christmas period
also a/l very short notice again most comp would refuse

tbh you should of said In first place you had a hospital appointment

you clearly hate the oka e but the short notice refusal and sickness investigation are standard practice

With that remark, you come across as a bully!

I think you're being very dramatic there. Bullying 🤣 by writing one post on a thread not aimed at a single person

I've never worked anywhere (in almost 30yrs of work) that world refuse a holiday request simoly because "too short notice" there would be an actual reason WHY they needed more notice, like if they needed to get cover for you or reaarange a rota or something, if none of that applies then "too short notice" isn't a reason. I like being treated like a human being, it costs employers nothing and they get motivated, loyal staff in return.

OP your manager is doing an awful job. I hope the interview goes well but keep looking anyway because you should get out of there as soon as possible.

I worked as a manger in my previous role. Team fluctuated between 20 and 40 staff all with different availability and different contracts. We recorded (tapped in and out) all our hours and breaks and whilst I wouldn't intentionally let a staff member miss a break (because I cared!) But I would be pulled up by my bosses if I did. Again not that I would have done this but if I had let this go on and had a staff member working 8 hours regularly without a break I would have had a disciplinary.

Time off for hospital requirements is just common decency IMO. Whether it's paid or not - most likely unpaid as it's not really "sick" leave as such.

As for investigating your time off, I wouldn't be doing this unless there was a pattern. For example of you always seemed to be ill on a Friday or if you were regularly sick for multiple days in a row and your reasons kept changing. It doesn't sound like you have been off that much but I suppose it may be significant to them.

I have very rarely denied leave in my role and I worked there 5 years with enough people. And for 2 days!? If there was a conflict for example everyone wanting the same day off then I would discuss with the individuals and see if any can be changed. This seems like awful communication from your manager.

It can be difficult organising leave and compromising on situations for staff but it's a lot less of a faff than hiring new people because they keep leaving!

On the other side of things I did stay in a job far too long after a difficult manager took over. It wasn't until after I had left the role and had time to process that I realized I was probably being bullied out of the role. Alot of people left after I did for the same reason. I had my partners income to support me short term so in brief moment of clarity I handed iny notice with nothing else lined up. This 100% absolutely broke mentally in so many ways, some of which I am still recovering from years later, so whilst you have the clarity of kind to see things are not right it's time to get out.

Sorry for the long reply I really wish you all the best.

Can't find your other thread but:
a) join a union
b) write a letter stating the legal entitlement to take a break - it's 20 min if you work more than 6 hours. (You may not get paid for it though).
c) your sick leave plus parental leave all comes under the 'attendance' umbrella, so they're not incorrect to do an investigation if they have concerns. Usually it's a set number of days in a set period that triggers it.
d) Unfortunately you are not legally entitled to take time off for hospital visits etc. So if this is not covered in your contract then they are correct to expect you to use leave for it. Awful I know!
e) It does sound like they want you out tbh, or are just awful bullying managers.
Tempted to agree with the advice to go on stress leave while you find another job, depends how difficult that might be and what you think your reference will be like if you need one.
Good luck with your interview.

If they refuse your leave they do have to give a reason - it needs to be business related, something like a busy period not allowing time off. If no reason is given the employee is entitled to raise a grievance if they have given the required amount of notice of the leave. Employers can dictate when you can and can’t take leave, and can actually specify when you take it, but again it has to be for operational reasons, not just because they feel like it.

She doesn't have two years service

Too short notice is a reason if the employee hasn’t given either the statutory amount of notice (twice the number of days requested plus one day) or an alternative stated in the contract of employment. But there are a lot of people posting that the employer doesn’t have to give a reason to refuse - they do, and it has to be for business reasons. If not the employee can raise a grievance.

I think you are having trouble regulating your emotions - you describe yourself as hot headed....feeling like crying...they are quite extremes. Do you have a problem with staying long in jobs / roles?

Oh, come on. Read her posts. Anyone would be at breaking point with this shit.

She can still ask to raise a grievance if she’s not given a reason for them refusing the leave request. A poster upthread somewhere advised her to go off sick. I wouldn’t advise it if she’s already under investigation for sick leave taken, because without two years service they could sack her while she’s off sick.

Where has she given short notice for annual leave ? She said her contract states reasonable notice but doesn’t state how much, so it would revert to statutory minimum - two days notice for each day requested, plus one day. So the OP gave ten days notice for two days leave when she only had to give five.

Employers are obliged to allow employees take the statutory minimum of 28 days leave in one year - although they can specify at what times they can and can’t take it for business operational reasons. If the employee has accrued untaken statutory holiday entitlement, the employer must pay them for it.

In the majority of circumstances, employees do not have a right to carry leave over. If you haven't taken all of your legal holiday entitlement during your holiday year, your employer may allow you to carry over the leftover days to the next holiday year, but there is no legal requirement for them to do so and there may be a limit to how much you are allowed to carry over.

I did say in my op hot headed, I more meant quick to make snap decisions regarding work. I did get very angry when manager 1 said that manager 2 said no. Especially when I asked why and they didn't know.
Because I had a feeling this was going to happen, that manager 2 is going to make me taking holidays difficult.
I genuinely believe that even with a month's notice, it will still be refused.

Many other people (who work in the building but not the same company) have noticed the way manager 2 speaks to me. Everything directed towards me drips with disdain, manager 2 doesn't even look at me. I feel worthless to manager 2 and genuinely don't understand what I've done wrong.

I am extremely sensitive. I can't help that. But you try having your work scoffed at, been told you're doing x and y and z wrong, or having your manager come in to your work space and turn it upside down because it isn't done their way, you try been micromanaged every single day for months. To be so scared of being caught sitting down that you scoff a sandwich while sitting on the toilet, and that's you're only break for the day. It's wrecked my head.

Both managers have also allowed the other employee to verbally abuse me and call me names. Not just once. And nothing was ever done. There was witnesses who over heard the abuse and even said 'they couldn't believe the vitriol said to me' and yet neither manager gave a shit. I did express how this made me feel, via email with their boss copied in and got no response

You are obviously looking for a new role so there is no reason to play nice...

Except that she hasn’t got two years service so hasn’t much in the way of rights if they decide to sack her for going off sick again - she’s already under investigation for sick leave taken.

How odd, I've just noticed an email back in October that I sent to manager 1 requesting my two days holiday
Email sent on the 7th October 2022 at 5pm
For the 13th and 14th of October 2022 off. And that was approved 🤷‍♀️

Classic signs of stress.

I have already seen a Dr regarding depression but I genuinely think it might be work related.
I'm not trying to lay it on thick, but I've never dreaded going to work so much before.
I don't even enjoy the weekends because it's just a count down to when I'm back in the building.
In my job I feel worthless and not appreciated. I don't feel liked at all
The only time I sit down is when I'm on the toilet, I have felt for a long time that manager 2 is looking to get rid of me. That he just needs to find the perfect reason and then I'm gone. I'm dam good at my job though, that's something I take pride in.
And no I've never had a problem staying in work.

She hasn’t got two years service so can’t pursue a claim for constructive dismissal or anything else. Pretty much nothing she can do other than look for another job and make sure that the employer pays her for any accrued statutory holidays when she leaves. If she’s working more than 6 hours a day then she’s legally entitled to a break, so she can ask for that to be honoured, as well as the right to be allowed to take her statutory annual leave. The best thing she could do is join a union and make sure her employer is aware of it - might make them think twice about their treatment of her on a day to day basis.

If it’s annual leave you’re requesting, you don’t need to give a reason. If there’s a clash with someone else asking for the same time, then the reason may be relevant, but other than that I can’t think of any reason why you would tell them, or why they would ask.

Employers have no obligation to pay an employee for untaken annual leave unless the employee has requested leave and been denied, leaving them unable to take the statutory minimum of 28 days within the 12 month period. If the OP hasn’t requested holidays they have no legal obligation to pay her for any untaken ones. Neither do they have an actual obligation to allow her to carry unused days over to the next holiday period. Most employers will allow carry over, subject to a limit in the number of days but there’s nothing in law to say they have to. If she leaves, they would then have to pay her for any statutory untaken leave.

To become a disability your condition has to meet the legal definition under the Equality Act - a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on your ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. Long term means likely to last 12 months or more or result in death within that time. It’s then subject to protected characteristics and the employer has to make reasonable adjustment for it.