Manager said no to holiday request

[Buddythecat1]

I'm probably going to get my arse handed to me on a plate here but fck it.
I asked for two days off on Monday just passed
I asked 10 days in advance.
Just been told today that it's been refused.
I asked why, was told 'I don't know'

I am very hot headed and I have such strong temptation to walk put right now. (I have another thread about my contract if anybody cares)
I've been spoken to like shit by this manager, talked down to on a daily basis, I've been micromanaged.
I dread coming to work, I cry most days. Management allowed another employee to verbally abuse me and no consequences were ever brought to the other person.

Would I be totally unreasonable to walk out? The thought of never having to work in this place again gives me great relief. Or am I just being stupid and should suck it up

I agree - the employer sounds like a nightmare. She would have had no option but to call in sick to take the appointment and then the employer would probably have sacked her because of sick leave already taken. Under normal circumstances that would be constructive dismissal but without two years service nothing she can do.

the employee has to work a notice period the employer can insist that the employee take unused holidays as part of that

That might work for the OP as she can leave earlier. But if she still has holiday owing from last year that they wouldn't let her take, she should be paid for it and not lose it.

We’ve already covered this. She’s entitled to 28 days statutory paid holidays, but employers are not obliged to pay for, or allow carry over of any untaken unless it’s for operational reasons. Any statutory entitlement untaken when she leaves would need to be paid unless taken as part of notice period. They are basic rights. The poster I answered was suggesting she initiate tribunal proceedings for constructive dismissal, and I was pointing out that she is not entitled to take the employer to tribunal unless she has two years service.

Assuming the OP is in a different holiday year now, that wouldn’t be relevant. If she had been prevented from taking the full holiday allowance for operational reasons, the employer would still have had to allow her to take the statutory minimum of 28 days so I’m guessing that that doesn’t apply. So assuming she’s carried over the allowed number of untaken holidays to the next year, the employer would still only be obliged to pay her a maximum of 28 days statutory untaken leave when she leaves the company.

Congratulations OP!

Congratulations on the new job, OP. Get out of that awful place as soon as you can.

FWIW, my job is 12m notice for AL.

You have to give ONE YEAR notice of holiday dates? That's bloody ridiculous.

@nutbrownhare15 · 15/02/2023 16:20
Can you conveniently be sick on the days you wanted?

@LemonSwan · 15/02/2023 16:56
Just go to the GP and get signed off with stress. Good luck with your interview.

Don't do this OP, congrats on the new job.

Do people realise when they give such advice it affects society as a whole?

The hospital appointment you've been waiting months for cancelled because someone 'conveniently called in sick'

People get refused leave all the time. My DH works in mental health and has to deal with staff not turning up for all sorts of reasons after being refused leave.

If your job is stressing you, surely you get another job like OP has done.

Hi everyone, still here and still reading.
Admittedly I didn't go in to work Thursday or Friday (nobody was affected, nobody was left short staffed, they also wouldn't get cover for me being off so they didn't need to fork out extra wages) and the relief has been immense. But now I'm back to Sunday, I have the fear setting in, I feel sick, I'm struggling to eat (usual Sunday worries when returning to work the next day)
Am I OK to write a letter of resignation effective immediately due to stress? Is this OK? I really can't work my notice and I can hand on heart tell you all right now they will not use or pay any accrued holiday so that isn't an option * *

If you don’t work your notice you’re in breach of your contract. They can technically sue you for that. And definitely don’t rely on a reference.

They could but I very much doubt they would.
If I work the notice, it means I have to cancel my hospital appointment which I really can't do

You are entitled to be paid for any statutory unused holiday you’ve accrued by law, so it definitely is an option. Statutory entitlement is 28 days so if you’ve taken less in your current leave year they either have to allow you to take what you can as part of your notice, or pay you for them. How often are you paid ? If it’s weekly, you only have to give a week’s notice - if it’s monthly it’s a bit trickier as you have to give the same in notice. I would go in tomorrow and hand in your notice. Ask to take the leave you are entitled to as part of whatever notice period you have to work, and if they refuse, or allow less than you are entitled to, tell them you are entitled by law to be paid for whatever days you they don’t allow you to take, and make it clear that you will take legal advice if they refuse. To be entitled to pay for leave untaken you would have to comply with the notice period. That said, if you’re not bothered about being paid for the untaken leave, hand in your notice effective immediately and tell them where to shove it - but obviously only do that if you don’t need a reference from them !! Good luck, glad you’re sorted.

Paid Fortnightly
I think they may have already been contacted as a reference but I could be wrong, I had to give reference details before the interview
It's my daughter's birthday on Thursday, I've promised her I can walk her to school so I'd be gutted I have to work instead, especially as my hospital appointment is Friday. That's the only reason I don't want to work my notice.
I do have a feeling if I go in tomorrow, manager 2 is still going to refuse the time off. And I'll get more shit for taking 2 days off

I would work the notice and tell them that you fully intend to take time off for your hospital appointment. They can’t refuse to allow the time off if you can’t rebook it in your own time. See my earlier post about demanding untaken holidays as part of your notice period - could you use that for your hospital appointment ? If not, the worst they can do is not pay you for the time off. At this point I don’t think you’ve got much to worry about in terms of them coming after you for breach of contract, because they’re guilty of it themselves. Even allowing for the fact that you haven’t been there two years, they’ve been in breach of the law in a couple of areas - not allowing breaks, lunches etc, and refusing to allow you to take your full holiday entitlement without good reason. Go in resolute and let them know you know you’r entitlement, and see what happens.

@Buddythecat1 you asked what they could do. That’s the answer. Your hospital appointment won’t take your entire notice period.

Are you in the Army/other services? I can't imagine any other jobs that would be so restrictive.

I'll get more shit for taking 2 days off so what? You're leaving. What can they do, other than whine.

"Yes I realise it's not ideal but I can't move hospital appointments"

"Yes, unfortunately I can't move hospital appointments"

"Yes I know, but I can't move a hospital appointment"

Broken record technique.

So effectively Thurs and Fri off two weeks running..

How does walking your daughter to school stop you going to work after & same as hospital appointment?

It's not ideal as you hate it there but more professional to honour your contract and work your notice.

So if they don't cover you, does that ran someone else is doing extra work or do you catch up when back?

They may not have covered you or forked out wages, but it would affect your colleagues.

Of course you can quit on the spot but don't expect to be paid or get a good reference.
Can't have it both ways.

I really am torn because I have a strong feeling that even asking manager 2 why the time off was refused, I'm still not going to get an answer
I'm going to be miserable and panicky for going back tomorrow but I feel like I do need to find out why he refused it, almost like I need closure.
I know, I know deep down it's bad form to not work a notice period but I'm really struggling to find the motivation to go back. Even going back to hand in my resignation letter and locker key etc is making me shake. I really cannot stand going to that building anymore.
It might not make sense to some but I've been spoken to like shit daily and it really had finally taken its toll on me

If I was you I would work out how many days leave they didn't pay you for last period, how many you would have owing if you left at the end of your notice period. Then write a resignation letter saying your notice period is X, in light of previous annual leave owed but not paid plus existing annual leave to be taken your last working day will be Y. This takes into account the 2 days of annual leave you have requested but have been refused, which you will still be taking as you are unable to reschedule the appointments you need the time off for.

Then only work your 5 hour contract shifts between the day you hand your notice in and your last day. Do everything to the letter of your contract.

Because I start work like two hours before my kids go to school. Although according to my contract I'm not even supposed to start until 12. I really am conflicted

Well the job can be done by one person, this isn't me exaggerating, it really can. I've done it on my own for weeks when I first started
But two shares out the load of it I guess. Infact when I was by myself, I was busier

How do I work it out please?
I've worked 7.45 to 16.30 for months
But my contract is only 5 hour shifts

Last year I started employment in August
In October I was told I had accused 2 days holiday based on my pt contract
So I have no idea how to work any of it out
But that was it, that's the only holidays I had and I definitely wasn't paid any extra for unused days

If you work a five days a week and were contracted to work five hour days then your leave entitlement is easy. It’s 28 five hour days. Anything less is pro rata as follows:

Days worked Days leave entitlement
4 days 22.4 days

3.5 days. 19.6 days

3 days. 16.8 days

2.5 days 14 days

2 days. 11.2 days

1.5 days. 8.4 days

1 day 5.6 days

You say you have worked from 7.45am - 4.30pm for ‘months’. This is an 8 hour day and qualifies as full time, not part time work - it’s a 40 hour week. You are entitled to a 20 minute break in the middle of the day. This can be paid or unpaid at the discretion of the employer. It is illegal for an employer not to provide this break on an 8 hour shift. You also need to have been paid for the actual hours worked, not just the contracted five hour day, and holiday time should have increased in line with the extra hours worked. It sounds to me as though you need to go back and account for your working hours, what you’ve been paid, break times allowed on days when you’ve worked more than six hours, and holiday entitlement. Then you need to see a solicitor specialising in employment law and let them sort it out. You have little in the way of protected rights until you have worked for an employer for two years continuous service, but you do have basic right as outlined above, and if your employer has denied them then you need legal advice.

Sorry nome of that makes sense to me but I'm quite thick, so I have 4 days of leave already?

I've worked ft hours since middle of August, but breaks were never taken off me due to having a pt contract so it looks like I clock in at 7.45am and leave at 16.30 with no break

My holidays did not increase, hence why I was so insistent to get a new ft contract

My contract is 5 days a week, doing five hour shifts
But then somebody left so I was asked to start at 7.45am and finish at 16.30pm
I've been doing that since middle of August, about three weeks after I started
But my holidays were always based on pt contract hence why I only had two days holiday come October
And I was told I only get 10 days holiday this year compared to the usual 20 (bank holidays are automatically off as the place is closed)