BIL wants us to pay for their lifestyle

[MsPorridge]

Sorry for my English: not a native speaker. BIL has asked my partner to give them money every month because they "can't cope" with all the expenses.

My partner went to visit his brother and his family last week. I wasn't there. Brother started asking partner how we are coping with cost of living and partner was just honest and said that energy bills are more expensive, etc. but because our expenses have always been so low, we are ok. Brother kept asking questions and partner did not think of any hidden intentions and answered and gave details about our financial situation (they were not very specific but it was just made clear that we were able to save around 2000 per month, except when there is some unexpected cost that month).

For some background: we have no children, no car, no pets, love cooking our own meals, no expensive hobby and maybe we are just very busy to spend money (we spend our time volunteering for different causes, doing exercise, love going on walks which is free...). This is just how we enjoy our life and the saving part just naturally happens. We also own our flat outright because we bought a small one (we could have afforded a much bigger place but not complaining, it was just what we felt we needed) and payed our mortgage quickly. Now we make around 3000 per month combined, so not really a high-income by any means, but it's fine for our situation. Most months we only spend like 1000 and the rest goes to savings/investments. It does help that I've never been interested in make-up or having lots of nice clothes, none of us drink alcohol, etc.

Going back to the problem: his brother started almost crying to him asking if we could give them around 500 per month during an indefinite amount of time to help with the expenses. My partner is a really soft person who always wants to help everyone. I've had a few arguments with him because of this. So he didn't say a straight no and from what he has told me he made it sound like he would talk with me about it and almost like a yes. Apparently the brother said things like "it wouldn't make any difference to you two, right? It seems you are really very comfortable with your life but we are really struggling at the moment". He also mentioned how my partner had to go back to stay with their mum and stayed rent-free for a year (this was 10 years ago and he still seems bitter and about it) as if somehow this justifies what he's asking.

They have 3 children, live in a much nicer and bigger house than us, have 2 expensive cars, 1 dog, 1 cat and 2 rabbits, I see pictures of them dinning out often or going away for the weekend with the whole family, always seem to have new fancy clothes, always redecorating the house, and children have a few expensive hobbies/after-school activities etc. Which I'm happy for them and don't feel any jealousy about but also don't see this is a desperate situation in which they are asking for money to put a meal on the table or pay the mortgage. They just need to adjust. My partner feels very sad for them and thinks it's not fair for the children not to be able to enjoy their life as usual. I feel very very angry that his brother feels entitled to my partner's money just because he has chosen to live a frugal life.

I am really disappointed with my partner for allowing this to happen. Please help. He has agreed with me that is totally unacceptable to ask but does not want to upset him.

He needs to get tough. The fact that his brother thought it was fine to ask and your partner has struggled to say no, would indicate that either your partner is a people pleaser in general or he has a dynamic within his family whereby his needs come last and he's basically a pushover. His tendency to allow his brother to walk over him is now affecting you and he owes it to you to get a grip of the situation. By making it sound like a "yes" and saying "I'll talk to Ms Porridge" when actually he doesn't want to give the money to them, he is making you the bad guy. He is making you take ownership of his decision. I mean obviously you should have a say because it's family money, but he shouldn't be making you take the fall as though you were the only one who said no.

He needs to point out to his brother that you may actually have a lower household income than him, but that you make choices that mean your lifestyle is less expensive. Obviously they can't go back in time and not have children, nor would they want to I imagine, but they certainly don't need to go onlots of holidays, have an expensive home, expensive hobbies etc and if they altered their lifestyle to match yours as much as possible (no eating out, free pastimes etc) then they would almost certainly find life less of a struggle.

Perhaps your partner could offer to go through their finances with them and help them to make cuts to maximise their savings. But that's as far as he should go. He shouldn't be paying for their kids to go to clubs. That's a lovely thing for an uncle or aunty to do (and I would definitely do this for my nephews if their parents were genuinely struggling and I had loads of spare cash) but if you don't have a close relationship and you can see that they are pissing money up the wall then that's different. Also my siblings would never ask me in such a guilt trippy way, and certainly not without making plenty of sacrifices themselves first.

What I find extraordinary is all the discussions about money and what you have and own.

We have never discussed money with either side of the family, it never comes up and we are very fond of them.

The level of enmeshment and lack of discretion is really weird IMO.

Perhaps if people kept their business private, others wouldn't feel so entitled to what isn't theirs to have.

Don't!

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you do they will resent you. They should be grateful but they won't be, as they way they will rationalise it as them being entitled to the money. At the same time you will resent seeing them using the money on luxuries.

If need be make an excuse You already have commitments to your family? You are thinking of buying a larger property/making larger pension contributions etc.

If you do lend money (and it should involve a lump sum and a formal loan agreement) it should be for a specific purpose, and with a repayment date. (Though mentally you should write off the money, it should at least discourage them from coming back for more, and will give a chance to discuss their finances and scope for repayment.)

We had this. Supposedly very successful brother, large detached house, non working wife, and two privately educated daughters, suddenly phones me. Could we lend a large amount of money immediately as he had a tax payment deadline the next day which he could not meet, and the bank was refusing to lend him money. Failing to pay would put his career as a solicitor at risk. We paid, albeit with a loan agreement and eventually half was repaid. The resentment was huge and destroyed any relationship. His wife had always looked down on us as the poor relatives, and as clear social inferiors. I am not sure that she knows about the loan as her attitude has not changed. My brother certainly knows we know he is not the success he claims to be, and this is very difficult for him. (He is now head of compliance at quite a large firm. I hope he has learnt something from the experience, though I suspect one day we will get another call.)

In an odd way it has usefully taught the kids that being able to live frugally gives you freedom. Getting tied into a lifestyle you can't afford is a trap.

It’s not always easy to say no when it’s someone you care about and they’re asking for something you could in theory very easily do

I'd agree with this, except that handing over the money wouldn't actually help BIL (though it might seem to)
All the DH would be doing is to prop up BIL in a lifestyle he clearly can't afford, which helps nobody in the end - and as said it's almost a guarantee that he'd simply be back for more

Thanks for the replies. I don´t have time to reply to everything right now but want to clarify a few points.
I am not British but everyone else is. And we live in England. So this has nothing to do with my culture as some people thought. And yes, in my culture people ask for help from families and are expected to help (and guess what, there are lots of broken relationships in my family due to this reason. Either because somebody asked and didn´t help, or somebody helped but never got any help back/their money back, etc.)
We know for a fact that they earn more than us. I will not say what profession but the salaries for their jobs is public - we dont even need to ask, anyone can know. You can guess what I´m talking about.

Like somebody said we would not be able to afford their lifestyle with our salaries.

Also, regarding whether the money is to be returned. This was not expressed in any way, what was expressed was the idea that it "wouldnt be a big deal for us" and for how long, well, just until "things get better".

Why give in to emotional blackmail? Let them sell one of their cars and get something cheaper, there's the £1000 straightaway. £1000 now will be another £1000 in a couple of months and so on. The brother and family should try living within their means rather than scrounging from those who do.

No need to apologise for your English, it’s amazing! Better than most native speakers. And your lifestyle sounds idyllic.

Apart from that, nothing really to add that hasn’t already been said. Your BIL is very cheeky. If I was your partner, I’d be more inclined to give some money to his parents for the rent he never paid though.

They are unbelievable piss takers. They think they are more important and you guys are used to not having so much so it doesn’t matter to you.

Please ask to see a breakdown of their finances with their full salaries accounted for so you can kindly help them budget, and let us know what they say.

If they say no, it is on record that you offered to help.

To keep your partner happy, I might, in this case, make an offer of something like this
'We will pay for one club each for the kids for 6 months. But if we see that you are spending money on luxuries like regular meals out and weekends away during this time, this will stop. We economise to have savings money and so should you.'

If your husband really wants to help, he should first ask his brother for a full, honest list of income and outgoings. If that's not forthcoming, that says a lot doesnt it. Maybe, together, though, they can work out some real savings.

I dont think its wring to help family on an occasional basis, but your brother in law should look at cutting out unnecessary spending first. If he hasn't done that, then it would suggest he really does just want someone to help keep up his own rather flashy sounding lifestyle.

I would just say no, if you give regular money it becomes an expectation. Had many family fall outs over it on DHs side. My side don't discuss money and it's never an issue.

Yes these are all good points. What is the dynamic between your husband and his family that this situation has ever even come up?

Btw, your life sounds lovely OP.

If they needed help to keep a roof over their head, or for food, or similar then perhaps. But it seem as if there's a lot they can do themselves to reduce their outgoings before asking family fr help.

Talk about main character syndrome.

Thank you for clarifying OP. Regardless of culture the BIL needs to hear No as a complete sentence. And if he persists then maybe you and DH can suggest looking at their finances before agreeing to anything…

Sounds like they can afford to save that money if they made some sacrifices. Maybe offer to sit down with them and arrange a budget. And if you did end up giving them money (please don’t) - be clear in your mind whether you expect it back or if it’s a gift

You/DH need to have a united front.

You start giving money now you'll be doing it until their youngest has graduated, cost of living only ever goes up.

I wouldn't even give a 'one off' sum because you can guarantee it won't be 'one off' once the seal on the tap is broken it will drip drip drip.

The other thing to be aware of is that they could be in debt. And if this is the case, they could be in the position where all their disposable income is just servicing the interest, which is why they're struggling to keep up their lifestyle.

Before that, it's often the case that you just get another credit card, or 'clear' some credit cards with a personal loan, which leaves the credit card available to spend on again.

But once you can't get any more credit, it all comes crashing down really quickly as you have all your money accounted for every month but nothing left to spend, or possibly can't even cover their essentials.

If they're in that position, taking money from you is only kicking the can down the road and preventing them from doing what they should be doing, which would be getting help to find a solutions to their debts, because otherwise they'll carry on paying huge sums of interest, but doing nothing to deal with their debts. There are people in that position for years before they realise they can't carry on, or are finally forced into a formal solution like bankruptcy or an IVA. And in the meantime, they've wasted tens of thousands of pounds in interest.

Like somebody said we would not be able to afford their lifestyle with our salaries.

I really think this is the approach you need to take. "BIL, we're on a low income, and so our savings are essential. If we have DC we wouldn't be able to give them a fraction of what you give yours, even one baby will be a huge strain on our finances and so we need to be sensible about that."

Definitely say no!! They will forever rely on that money otherwise. By all means if your husband wants to give them a small one off payment and refuse anymore then ok, but no doubt they will spend it on a holiday or something.

Tell the BIL to jog on!
He's taking advantage of you both, if he was really struggling he wouldn't have pets & a fancy car or going out for meals every 5 minutes.

Keep the money for yourselves, one day you may need it, you might have a surprise bill or you might just fancy a treat. You work hard - it's yours.
If your BIL wants more money then him & his wife need to get better paid jobs!

Wow leave it to Mumsnet to say “you’re not currently being unreasonable but this is how to change that to be a complete dick”.

No of course you’re not obliged to subsidise them. However don’t start lectures on how they could do better unless you want ti start sounding like a daily mail reporter bitching about flat screen TVs. Times are rough, it’s okay to empathise without giving money. Maybe he’ll signpost them to places that actually could help.

Haven't read all the replies but remind your partner of the saying...
Never a borrower or lender be.
Saves any problems that will arise in the future.

As your BIL seems open to discussing his money problems your partner should ask to see his outgoings/incomings and help budget and suggest where savings can be made.

Your partner has bottled the situation and made you into the bad guy. He basically said that he would be fine with it but he had to check with you. So if he now comes back and says no, it can only be because you have refused.

a. Decisions like this in a relationship should be taken together, with responsibility for them shared.
b. You can't be subsidising someone else's lifestyle choices. All choices come with up sides and down sides. Your BIL wants to take the up side of your life decisions and leave you with the down sides. That's cray cray

Your partner is conflict avoiding, which makes him a pushover; he needs to grow a pair