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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to refuse to go on a business trip to Dubai

313 replies

ElizaDav · 12/02/2023 01:48

I have been asked to provide my expertise on a product development project. Not part of my main responsibilities but an interesting opportunity and cool way to get more exposure in the organisation. Part of it will entail participation in a 4 day meeting with global colleagues on Dubai. Am an out and proud lesbian and definitely not a place I want to go to. Would it look bad if I refuse? Could I suggest they have the meeting in the UK (where we are HQed) or another country? I feel angry that i have been put in a position where i have to choose between career development and travelling to a homophobic and misogynistic country. Our organisation is always going on about diversity inclusion etc yet men making decisions that we should all meet in Dubai just smacks of institutional homophobia and misogyny. Arrghhh...

OP posts:
AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 13:43

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:22

You do not work in Dubai as a sex worker. It's one of the last places on earth you would do this. In the eyes of the law her being a sex worker was far worse than her being raped. Why in earth would she think going to the police was a bright idea? Can't you not see the point I am making? She complained about being locked up or having her passport taken away, I can't quite remember all the details, due to being raped, but it was more to do with being a sex worker. If I remember rightly I'm not even sure she was raped, I think the guy refused to pay her. I was actually in the Middle East at the time and it was all over the news outlets. Just why would a sex worker go to the police in Dubai???

That is victim blaming to the extreme.

GoodChat · 12/02/2023 13:45

I can't quite remember all the details, due to being raped, but it was more to do with being a sex worker. If I remember rightly I'm not even sure she was raped, I think the guy refused to pay her.

Even if you supported sex work and it was legal, surely 'having sex' with a sex worker and then refusing to pay her would legally be rape as those weren't the conditions she agreed to?

Wagt · 12/02/2023 13:50

YABVU. Your sexual preferences shouldn’t prevent you from doing your job.

Plus, Dubai has cool waterparks.

I get that you disagree with Dubai’s policies - so do I. But by your logic no-one should visit Russia, China, most of South America, etc etc. I wouldn’t even be able to go to Scotland 🤣

I’m guessing you’re in your twenties? This kind of “I think the workplace should change to accommodate my feelings” is so Millennial snowflake… All the senior managers are fed up of it. Just do your job or quit and let someone else do it.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:53

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 13:43

That is victim blaming to the extreme.

Show quote history

Maybe it is then, if you tell me so. If I was raped in Dubai, or worked as a sex worker I would not go to the police because history would tell me that I wouldn't get a good outcome. I would see it as putting myself in the line of fire. Whether I agree with their laws or not I know full well that they wouldn't help me.

LexMitior · 12/02/2023 13:54

You have a choice - if you worked elsewhere they would be more sensitive to it.

Being out places like Dubai is practically impossible. Still less doing business.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:59

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

TooBigForMyBoots · 12/02/2023 14:00

MarshaMelrose · 12/02/2023 02:13

I thought I'd hate Dubai but I loved it. Go and represent yourself and your sexuality. I'd think that would the best protest you could do.

Don't do this.🤦‍♀️

Fancylike · 12/02/2023 14:30

saraclara · 12/02/2023 12:13

@starlingdarling that news report about the woman who had a glass of wine on an Emirates flight was completely misinformed. She arrived in Dubai without the correct visa, got belligerent and abusive with staff, started to film them, and was then asked if she'd been drinking. She was arrested for her behaviour, not for the glass of wine.

I, like pretty much everyone who's ever flown Emirates, have enjoyed a few of their complimentary glasses of wine. They'd have to arrest nearly everyone on every flight if she'd been arrested for that.
Of course she'd have focused on that question and not on her own behaviour. Most people who are arrested try to find an unfair reason rather than have people know the rest of the story.

I’d like to add that she left the UK on one passport, then tried to go through UAE customs using her second passport with a different nationality. They flagged that, refused entry, and wanted to question her. She then threw an almighty tantrum - there was video making the rounds here - she got in officials faces and swore and spat at them. Hideous behavior.

Also known here as a fly in injector, doing illegal lip filler etc in hotel rooms, which she fails to mention in the news stories.

ReneBumsWombats · 12/02/2023 15:17

Wagt · 12/02/2023 13:50

YABVU. Your sexual preferences shouldn’t prevent you from doing your job.

Plus, Dubai has cool waterparks.

I get that you disagree with Dubai’s policies - so do I. But by your logic no-one should visit Russia, China, most of South America, etc etc. I wouldn’t even be able to go to Scotland 🤣

I’m guessing you’re in your twenties? This kind of “I think the workplace should change to accommodate my feelings” is so Millennial snowflake… All the senior managers are fed up of it. Just do your job or quit and let someone else do it.

I was going to explain to you that the barrier to her work isn't her sexuality, but then I read the rest of the post and if it is actually serious...probably best I don't know. I have to cling to my naive notion that people aren't really like this.

By the way, the millenials are now in their 30s. A handful at either end are late 20s or early 40s. We've taken this shite long enough from people who can't count. It's Gen Z now. Go after them and leave us the fuck alone already. We've had 20 years of this, ffs.

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 15:40

Again so many people who do not understand that your/UK assumption of the law and how things SHOUD be are not recognised worldwide. The Emiratis do turn blind eyes to lots of things but you never know when you encounter a taxi driver , a policeman or official who is looking for a little bit of side money. It's the way it is - as in many countries. Go about your business or holiday , be respectful and don't be obviously drunk in public creating a scene and you will be fine.

ApiratesaysYarrr · 12/02/2023 15:53

MrsTerryPratchett · 12/02/2023 02:21

They're asking you to go somewhere that makes you a criminal. Fine to refuse. And say why. But be all 'curious' about the choice. Make them say why it's OK.

This advice hits the spot.

Eas1lyd1stracted · 12/02/2023 15:53

I read the title. I immediately thought 'as long as you're not gay'. There's no way I'd be setting foot in a country where my marriage is illegal. And they are an incredibly strict country in terms of prosecution generally. I'm a lesbian and most people think I'm straight passing. I'd spend the whole time feeling anxious and unsafe and would refuse.

RampantIvy · 12/02/2023 16:14

I'm puzzled why posters are saying that the OP will be arrested and lashed for being gay the minute she steps off the plane.

I mean, how will they know what her sexuality is? It doesn't say so in your passport. Are they assuming that the OP looks butch?

Marths · 12/02/2023 16:16

RampantIvy · 12/02/2023 16:14

I'm puzzled why posters are saying that the OP will be arrested and lashed for being gay the minute she steps off the plane.

I mean, how will they know what her sexuality is? It doesn't say so in your passport. Are they assuming that the OP looks butch?

Who said that?

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 16:41

sashh · 12/02/2023 06:06

Homosexuality is illegal in Dubai.

You are advising the OP to do something that could get her jailed and lashed.

That is why it is stupid.

Show quote history

Here.

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 16:41

but it's bollocks.

Ponderingwindow · 12/02/2023 17:12

Hadjab · 12/02/2023 08:21

Curious as to why you think OP is more likely to be sexually assaulted going to Dubai, than if she were going anywhere else?

Show quote history

It is not that she is likely to be assaulted.
the problem is if a woman is assaulted and seeks medical care or reports the crime to police she can be arrested and face serious charges in the uae.

i would expect the company to have a medical evacuation service on standby to get female employees out of the country immediately by private plane in the event of an assault. It should not depend on the victim being in good enough shape to make her own way to the airport. if they can’t arrange that, they shouldn’t be holding the meeting there.

saraclara · 12/02/2023 17:16

queerintheworld.com/gay-dubai-uae-travel-guide/

Crazycrazylady · 12/02/2023 17:23

Honestly op, my company works with some large organisations that I don't think much of, it also trades with some customers in the mise east but I don't get to chose not to deal with them and it was an issue for me, I'd simply leave the company .
I honestly don't think it's your place to protect your morals on to your company's business policy.

starlingdarling · 12/02/2023 18:13

It is not that she is likely to be assaulted.
the problem is if a woman is assaulted and seeks medical care or reports the crime to police she can be arrested and face serious charges in the uae.*

I suspect she would be more likely to be assaulted. If you grow up in a country where women are shamed and punished for being raped, you're going to grow up with a very skewed view of women as people.

WinterDeWinter · 12/02/2023 18:25

MrsTerryPratchett · 12/02/2023 02:21

They're asking you to go somewhere that makes you a criminal. Fine to refuse. And say why. But be all 'curious' about the choice. Make them say why it's OK.

This. And it would be great if you could push back not just on the grounds that you will be extremely uncomfortable and potentially in danger personally but that any country with such a terrible human rights record on multiple grounds (race, sex, sexuality, right to protest, no democracy, migrant workers/modern day slavery etc) should never have been considered regardless of who is going.

SoulCaptain · 12/02/2023 18:27

I agree with previous posts asking for your work to undertake a risk assessment.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 12/02/2023 18:32

A lot of people are missing the significant difference between not going somewhere that has laws you disagree with, and not going somewhere that has a law against you personally.

It's fine until it's not

This.

There are 2 aspects to risk - likelihood and size of consequence.

In this case the probability of a run in with the law is very low. But if it does happen, the potential consequence is large.

And it's not all down to factors under your control - for example if you fall ill and are hospitalised then, if you have a partner or wife, her rights to visit or make decisions won't be recognised.

Fancylike · 12/02/2023 18:37

Even though posters are completely ignoring the first hand experiences of women who currently leave in the UAE, I have to chime in now that sexual assault is being brought up.

I was recently sexually assaulted here in Dubai, by a British tourist, and the hotel I was visiting reported to police against my wishes. The police tracked him down and arrested him and charged him. I was believed despite it being he said, she said with the only evidence the security cameras showing him following me. At no point was I made to feel like a criminal or treated like I wasn’t believed. They took my feelings very seriously and were very kind throughout. I didn’t end up going to court as I didn’t want to see him and they instead had my statement read to the court through a proxy.

The experience was the polar opposite to how I was treated after being raped back home. Even with witnesses the police there were so awful to me that I dropped it.

Those pulling up stories about women being arrested for sexual activity in the UAE should double check the dates - it’s been years since this has been considered a crime. I think the last case was at least 5 years ago, and the couple was deported. The remaining stories are only about the woman being arrested, never about her being charged and convicted. This is because in these cases, like the one linked above, the woman is a sex worker and while there’s a large number of sex workers in Dubai, it’s still illegal. When caught, especially Westerners, they will spend a week or two in holding, then have their visa revoked and get deported. The men in the earlier mentioned case would have had the same outcome but they’ve been quicker and fled before that.

Again, if you don’t actually know how rules are applied then don’t bother commenting. If OP is concerned about being gay here, she can ask someone who lives it. Although the zero cases of lesbians being arrested and charged for being gay probably says enough, you can also compare the number of hate crimes here (zero) to those in the UK…

Ponderingwindow · 12/02/2023 19:07

fancylike, do I have this right? You are claiming that the multiple stories of women being arrested for being raped. All those women were prostitutes and these are actually jobs gone bad?