to refuse to go on a business trip to Dubai

[ElizaDav]

I have been asked to provide my expertise on a product development project. Not part of my main responsibilities but an interesting opportunity and cool way to get more exposure in the organisation. Part of it will entail participation in a 4 day meeting with global colleagues on Dubai. Am an out and proud lesbian and definitely not a place I want to go to. Would it look bad if I refuse? Could I suggest they have the meeting in the UK (where we are HQed) or another country? I feel angry that i have been put in a position where i have to choose between career development and travelling to a homophobic and misogynistic country. Our organisation is always going on about diversity inclusion etc yet men making decisions that we should all meet in Dubai just smacks of institutional homophobia and misogyny. Arrghhh...

One of the gay friends that I mentioned, is traveling to Saudi of all places, soon.
He wants to see some specific archaeological sites there (it's his field of interest rather than work) and he's not prepared to let their attitudes restrict his access to the world. It's his way of saying "F you".

That's different, he is a male. Women are a bit more vulnerable.

MarshaMelrose
I guess that's why they're still oppressed then.

I've read some batshit posts from this poster, but this really takes the cake. Real victim-blaming draw-dropping stuff. I cannot believe they are saying people are at fault for being oppressed. I just can't....

Why all of a sudden does * italicise instead of bold?

Yes. To my well-briefed knowledge, Western women reported about for extramarital sex in the last 5 or so years since application of the law eased and then was removed altogether, less than 10 of them, was visiting for sex work. You can do a tally of the news stories and see exactly how rare it is.

About 5000 sex workers are arrested and deported each year, and it’s usually only the Brits/USians with unaware families working with the biased Detained in Dubai group are in the news as DiD has its own interests in chasing media coverage. You’ll notice that the UK press never reports the final sentencing, and when they are quietly deported a week later, they don’t go firing up to the media and their previously vocal family shuts up too.

Again, those who say they will never visit but seem to have very fixed ideas on what day to day life is like here need to give their bigoted heads a wobble. As a non-Western bi woman, I have found this city much more respectful of women’s safety and inclusive of all beliefs. But of course the white straight saviors are here to speak over me and my community.

She said that as a gay woman she doesn't want to go to Dubai, where just by merit of being who she is means she is breaking the law.

@HotDogJumpingFrogHaveACookie she is not breaking the law by being who she is. The law is about homosexual sexual activity. If she doesn't have gay sex, she's not breaking the law. And even if she does, if she's behaving like any normal person and having it in private, she is not going to be arrested. And of course heterosexual sex in public is also breaking the law.

Do you not understand how "illegal in public" is different to "illegal completely" and why that might make a gay person feel unwelcome, unsafe and unwilling to go?

Some posters will bend over backwards to defend homosexuality being illegal.

Upthread @saraclara and @Lentilweaver have both described some of the problems. We have had similar issues with international conferences.

I find it fascinating how many self righteous white liberals are happy to turn a blind eye to racism with all the "let them come to a white liberal country" routines.

Is there any space in your mind for the possibility that both racism and homophobia are categorically and simultaneously unacceptable?

Why are you comparing them?

They are both wrong.

One form of discrimination existing does not make any other forms of discrimination less wrong, less significant or less worthy of consideration.

What are you trying to achieve here?

Having gay sex in a country where gay sex is illegal is not the same as having straight sex in a country where straight sex is legal.

Why are you trying to sweep this fact under the carpet? What’s your point?

Or do you genuinely not understand that there is a distinction between gay and straight sex?

Of course OP can say that but IRL it could be noticed and noted if only in mind and it could lead to a "hmmm so and so is awkward when it comes to some things" and potentially affect her career in future. Maybe OP is happy to do that for the principle of it. Maybe OP wouldn't want to work for a company who did that. It would be a very difficult thing to claim that she is being seen as less suitable than another candidate

Oh don't be ridiculous. Nobody is saying either is correct.

What screams out of many of theses posts though is the ignorance of white liberal privilege "solving" a problem by saying the conference should be moved to a white liberal country which will implicitly exclude delegates from other protected characteristics.

Like a PP I've seen this exercise on a training module. Part of the purpose of the modules was that achieving diversity needs to consider all the hierarchy of needs and not just make a bunch of assumptions from a perspective of one type of privilege.

I agree. It would have been helpful for you to say that in the first place.

Also there is no need for you to tell me I’m being ridiculous. You’re clearly capable of making your point without prefacing your comments with random insults.

Asking for clarity with regards to your comments is far from ridiculous. It was quite necessary.

You may wish to read the thread or at least the line of posts to which you are responding before issuing snarky responses in future.

But what I’m mainly saying is that a company that claims to be inclusive should be open to OP saying she won't go. As others have said, there are reasons that the UK might be discriminatory for some, reasons why Dubai might for others. A company that actually means it when it says it is inclusive should have a policy in place to consciously consider the impact on diverse employees of the location of meetings.

And there are companies that do say this, i have worked for one in the past* (and it wasn't just about the UAE) so the OP is not being unreasonable to question this. There are lots of reasons why individuals may not be able or comfortable to attend meetings in certain countries.

Having gay sex in a country where gay sex is illegal is not the same as having straight sex in a country where straight sex is legal

Well it is illegal to have sex outside marriage, so …. yeah ….

To my well-briefed knowledge, Western women reported about for extramarital sex in the last 5 or so years since application of the law eased and then was removed altogether, less than 10 of them, was visiting for sex work. You can do a tally of the news stories and see exactly how rare it is

About 5000 sex workers are arrested and deported each year, and it’s usually only the Brits/USians with unaware families working with the biased Detained in Dubai group are in the news as DiD has its own interests in chasing media coverage. You’ll notice that the UK press never reports the final sentencing, and when they are quietly deported a week later, they don’t go firing up to the media and their previously vocal family shuts up too

Thank you, Fancylike, that was interesting

Um. That’s still very different. For straight people it is illegal unless you get married. For gay people, it’s illegal unless… oh wait… yeah it’s just illegal. So the two are clearly quite distinct.

It sounds like their ethnicity was literally the principle reason why they didn't arrest them and allowed it to go on for 30 years.

I feel the NYE sexual assaults in Germany may be a similar case. 1200 sexual assaults in one night and not a peep from the usual suspects that protest male violence.

A story of rampant child abuse—ignored and abetted by the police—is emerging out of the British town of Rotherham. Until now, its scale and scope would have been inconceivable in a civilized country. Its origins, however, lie in something quite ordinary: what one Labour MP called “not wanting to rock the multicultural community boat.”

Article: Why Did British Police Ignore Pakistani Gangs Abusing 1,400 Rotherham Children? Political Correctness

www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/amp/

A searing and highly apposite piece from Forbes, PeanutButterSmoothie

See also this about the person who wrote it: www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-scruton-tapes/

I still don't understand what child abuse in Rotherham has to do with business trip to Dubai.

The link being made is the fear of criticising Islamic communities over their treatment of women, girls and homosexuals. (Things that, to be fair, were pretty institutionalized in the UK until after the 2nd world war).

There's plenty of criticism of Dubai, what are you talking about? What are you determined to shoehorn in something which has nothing to do with anything?

@poweredbysteam

What are you talking about?

I was pointing out what the link being made was, which you'd claimed to be ignorant of. I did not say I think it's entirely valid or use it myself.