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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to refuse to go on a business trip to Dubai

313 replies

ElizaDav · 12/02/2023 01:48

I have been asked to provide my expertise on a product development project. Not part of my main responsibilities but an interesting opportunity and cool way to get more exposure in the organisation. Part of it will entail participation in a 4 day meeting with global colleagues on Dubai. Am an out and proud lesbian and definitely not a place I want to go to. Would it look bad if I refuse? Could I suggest they have the meeting in the UK (where we are HQed) or another country? I feel angry that i have been put in a position where i have to choose between career development and travelling to a homophobic and misogynistic country. Our organisation is always going on about diversity inclusion etc yet men making decisions that we should all meet in Dubai just smacks of institutional homophobia and misogyny. Arrghhh...

OP posts:
AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 19:07

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 16:41

Here.

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Nothing about as soon as she steps off the plane, that was invented by you in your attempt to defend these barbaric laws.

CupidCantAimStraight · 12/02/2023 19:15

YANBU; they shouldn't be asking someone to go to a country where they could be arrested for existing.

Cross dressing is illegal in Dubai, and I'll bet they have a wide definition of what that is, so if you're more at the butch end of the spectrum it would be especially unsafe.

NumberTheory · 12/02/2023 19:20

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 15:40

Again so many people who do not understand that your/UK assumption of the law and how things SHOUD be are not recognised worldwide. The Emiratis do turn blind eyes to lots of things but you never know when you encounter a taxi driver , a policeman or official who is looking for a little bit of side money. It's the way it is - as in many countries. Go about your business or holiday , be respectful and don't be obviously drunk in public creating a scene and you will be fine.

The whole point is that people do recognise how it works in Dubai and that is why they think OP should feel okay to refuse to go and to point out that having the meeting there is not inclusive of her. Because she doesn’t want to have to pay off people for simply being who she is.

YoBeaches · 12/02/2023 19:34

If you believe your company would support you, then raise it on the basis that you'd rather not travel to a country with such restrictions on human rights.

I know where I work would totally respect this. Sometimes there are things they just haven't thought of until someone mentions it, then they realise they've been narrowminded.

You don't really lose anything just by raising it though. For discussion to start with rather than point refusal.

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 19:59

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 19:07

Nothing about as soon as she steps off the plane, that was invented by you in your attempt to defend these barbaric laws.

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No it wasn't me - I quoted that as it mentioned being lashed. Read properly.

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 20:06

NumberTheory · 12/02/2023 19:20

The whole point is that people do recognise how it works in Dubai and that is why they think OP should feel okay to refuse to go and to point out that having the meeting there is not inclusive of her. Because she doesn’t want to have to pay off people for simply being who she is.

Show quote history

you are saying in effect that any gay woman can say they won't go to Dubai or other place to work because they are gay ? How about if you are a straight woman? WTF is going to know if she is gay or not? Anyone can end up paying someone off for being drunk , disorderly, vomiting in a taxi, whatever in a bad situation. No one would know! Principles are altogether a different thing. People are going to get fed up with that - well Liz won't go to China because they eat dogs, she won't go to Thailand because they have animal shows, she won't go to France because they eat horses, she won't go to the USA because they are racist...and on and on... and as is often the case the majority have to bend for the minority.

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 20:07

OP hasn't been back on thread 🤔 I usually make it a rule to never post on a drop and dash.

ancientpants · 12/02/2023 20:11

This thread is awful. It's like telling a person of colour in the 60's to go to meeting in the Deep South of America and just not be openly black. That work and a career is more important than standing up to oppression and that it's great how so much more liberal things are now.

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 20:19

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 20:06

you are saying in effect that any gay woman can say they won't go to Dubai or other place to work because they are gay ? How about if you are a straight woman? WTF is going to know if she is gay or not? Anyone can end up paying someone off for being drunk , disorderly, vomiting in a taxi, whatever in a bad situation. No one would know! Principles are altogether a different thing. People are going to get fed up with that - well Liz won't go to China because they eat dogs, she won't go to Thailand because they have animal shows, she won't go to France because they eat horses, she won't go to the USA because they are racist...and on and on... and as is often the case the majority have to bend for the minority.

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If you can't understand why someone who is gay would not want to go somewhere that it is illegal to be gay then yoy are severly lacking in empathy and I feel sorry for you.

C8H10N4O2 · 12/02/2023 20:40

saraclara · 12/02/2023 08:41

Part of it will entail participation in a 4 day meeting with global colleagues on Dubai.

If their global colleagues, is say that Dubai had been chosen for its openness to offering visas to almost all nationalities.

Could I suggest they have the meeting in the UK (where we are HQed) or another country?

Highly unlikely that this would work, given that some or many of those participants would be refused visas.

I feel angry that i have been put in a position where i have to choose between career development and travelling to a homophobic and misogynistic country.

This is where you recognise your privilege as a white British person. Yes, it's uncomfortable for you to visit a place where theoretically lesbianism is illegal. But this is a one off, you can go and you will be safe, and you can avoid it if you're determined to miss out on this professional opportunity.

Now imagine what it's like for those who are unwelcome here to the point that they are not allowed the freedom you have to travel for work, due to the colour of their skin or the poverty of their country. They don't get a choice. They're simply blocked from coming here.

I agree with both you and @Lentilweaver - saying "let them come here" is a bit "let them eat cake".

We also have to go to meetings/conferences with clients which are sometimes in places which I'd rather not visit. However we have exactly this problem - "liberal" majority white countries can be both expensive and a nightmare to visit if you are from countries which do not claim the liberal high ground. Some of those liberal countries are pretty selective on which rights they will honour as well - Malta springs to mind.

I also remember this exact scenario from an I&D module, I wonder if the OP will be returning with more info.

amoobaa · 12/02/2023 21:50

Wagt · 12/02/2023 13:50

YABVU. Your sexual preferences shouldn’t prevent you from doing your job.

Plus, Dubai has cool waterparks.

I get that you disagree with Dubai’s policies - so do I. But by your logic no-one should visit Russia, China, most of South America, etc etc. I wouldn’t even be able to go to Scotland 🤣

I’m guessing you’re in your twenties? This kind of “I think the workplace should change to accommodate my feelings” is so Millennial snowflake… All the senior managers are fed up of it. Just do your job or quit and let someone else do it.

@Wagt ”Your sexual preferences shouldn’t prevent you from doing your job”

Um. That’s literally the point being made.

Only you seem to think it’s the person being discriminated against that is causing the problem.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:19

It's odd how people are so quick to criticise places like Dubai yet terrified to comment on Muslim homophobia in the UK.

In the last survey I read, over 50% of UK Muslim respondents openly stated that homosexuality should be an imprisonable crime. The mind boggles.

GoodChat · 12/02/2023 22:20

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:19

It's odd how people are so quick to criticise places like Dubai yet terrified to comment on Muslim homophobia in the UK.

In the last survey I read, over 50% of UK Muslim respondents openly stated that homosexuality should be an imprisonable crime. The mind boggles.

But it's not an imprisonable crime in the UK

amoobaa · 12/02/2023 22:21

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 20:06

you are saying in effect that any gay woman can say they won't go to Dubai or other place to work because they are gay ? How about if you are a straight woman? WTF is going to know if she is gay or not? Anyone can end up paying someone off for being drunk , disorderly, vomiting in a taxi, whatever in a bad situation. No one would know! Principles are altogether a different thing. People are going to get fed up with that - well Liz won't go to China because they eat dogs, she won't go to Thailand because they have animal shows, she won't go to France because they eat horses, she won't go to the USA because they are racist...and on and on... and as is often the case the majority have to bend for the minority.

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@MrsDubai Are you comparing being a lesbian to having dietary preferences?

Are you suggesting that a gay person refusing to travel to a country where their marriage is not recognised and their sexual orientation is illegal, is the same as a person refusing to visit a country based on dietary preference?

Being gay is different to choosing what food you eat. Wow. How come that needs clarifying in 2023.

A gay person refusing to travel anywhere they do not have equal rights is different to a person refusing to travel to anywhere unless the entire country adheres to the exact same distaff preferences as them.

Also, what’s all this nonsense about the majority having to bend to the will of the minority?

Are you saying that the moral, ethical, decent thing to do is directly related to the number of people who do or don’t support a particular action/ decision?

So if most people are not gay and most people don’t support gay rights then we needn’t worry about gay rights?

Where are you getting these ideas a from?

Marths · 12/02/2023 22:22

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:19

It's odd how people are so quick to criticise places like Dubai yet terrified to comment on Muslim homophobia in the UK.

In the last survey I read, over 50% of UK Muslim respondents openly stated that homosexuality should be an imprisonable crime. The mind boggles.

Who's terrified? This thread is about Dubai, where homosexuality is illegal.

maddy68 · 12/02/2023 22:34

As much as I hate Dubai. If this is partly of your job role yabu

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:35

Marths · 12/02/2023 22:22

Who's terrified? This thread is about Dubai, where homosexuality is illegal.

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British people are terrified to call out homophobia for fear of offending 'ethnic minorities'.

It's exactly the same reason why the police ignored the Muslim paedophile rings in Rotherham, which they've pretty much admitted to.

People love to virtue signal but when it's closer to home they tend to look the other way and play dumb.

HotDogJumpingFrogHaveACookie · 12/02/2023 22:39

Honestly the ignorance on these boards is breathtaking at times.

The OP hasn't asked whether she should go. She hasn't asked for the lived experience of your cousin's best friend's gay neighbour when they went to Dubai. And I don't think she asked how to keep under the radar there.

She said that as a gay woman she doesn't want to go to Dubai, where just by merit of being who she is means she is breaking the law. Why on earth should she be expected to shroud herself in subterfuge in order to be certain of being free of persecution? What employer should think that is a reasonable expectation?

Absolutely right that nobody should be put in that situation. It's nothing like disliking Canada's history on human rights, or how right wing Swedish politics is steering. Its a law that directly impacts the OP should she go to Dubai. And it does, irrespective of how unlikely people keep insisting the chance of falling foul of it is. Nobody should be expected to have to hide who they are by their employer.

ReneBumsWombats · 12/02/2023 22:40

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:19

It's odd how people are so quick to criticise places like Dubai yet terrified to comment on Muslim homophobia in the UK.

In the last survey I read, over 50% of UK Muslim respondents openly stated that homosexuality should be an imprisonable crime. The mind boggles.

What survey is that?

LexMitior · 12/02/2023 22:41

Dubai is pretty unsavoury despite the money, the social attitudes have a long way to go.

Having faced a similar issue, I was told I had two choices and it was up to me. Go and not be out. Or not go.

What was not an option was to be openly gay.

I went. Professionally most people were fine. However, it was not a great time personally. I have not gone back.

Marths · 12/02/2023 22:48

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:35

British people are terrified to call out homophobia for fear of offending 'ethnic minorities'.

It's exactly the same reason why the police ignored the Muslim paedophile rings in Rotherham, which they've pretty much admitted to.

People love to virtue signal but when it's closer to home they tend to look the other way and play dumb.

Show quote history

What does any of that have to do with this thread? This thread is about the OP being asked to go to a different country.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:57

Honestly the ignorance on these boards is breathtaking at times.

The OP hasn't asked whether she should go. She hasn't asked for the lived experience of your cousin's best friend's gay neighbour when they went to Dubai. And I don't think she asked how to keep under the radar there.

Um, you do realise that this is the AIBU section, right? Where you ask if you're being unreasonable.

So, OPs AIBU is whether she is unreasonable to not want to go to Dubai. Of course, if you ask a question like this people will (shock horror) give their opinions.

The ignorance on these boards is breathtaking at times. 🙄

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:59

Marths · 12/02/2023 22:48

What does any of that have to do with this thread? This thread is about the OP being asked to go to a different country.

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The common theme is homophobia.

Marths · 12/02/2023 23:04

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 22:59

The common theme is homophobia.

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That's a stretch. The OP asked advice about going to Dubai and the attitude of Muslims in the UK has nothing to do with that.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 12/02/2023 23:09

Marths · 12/02/2023 23:04

That's a stretch. The OP asked advice about going to Dubai and the attitude of Muslims in the UK has nothing to do with that.

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I didn't say it was.

I'm just noting that people are very vocal about other countries but awfully quiet around widespread homophobia in the UK.