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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to refuse to go on a business trip to Dubai

313 replies

ElizaDav · 12/02/2023 01:48

I have been asked to provide my expertise on a product development project. Not part of my main responsibilities but an interesting opportunity and cool way to get more exposure in the organisation. Part of it will entail participation in a 4 day meeting with global colleagues on Dubai. Am an out and proud lesbian and definitely not a place I want to go to. Would it look bad if I refuse? Could I suggest they have the meeting in the UK (where we are HQed) or another country? I feel angry that i have been put in a position where i have to choose between career development and travelling to a homophobic and misogynistic country. Our organisation is always going on about diversity inclusion etc yet men making decisions that we should all meet in Dubai just smacks of institutional homophobia and misogyny. Arrghhh...

OP posts:
toffeecrisps · 12/02/2023 11:19

saraclara · 12/02/2023 10:55

She is going on business. She is not going to be indulging in homosexual acts in public.

Being gay is not illegal. There are gay clubs there. Homosexual acts are illegal, but they would need to be witnessed for anyone to be tried for them. Unless OP going to look for a sexual partner there and have sex in her hotel bar, I maintain that she has no cause for concern.

Show quote history

Can you really not comprehend why a gay person would not feel comfortable going to a place where homosexuality is illegal even if they are not going to "indulge in homosexual acts"?

starlingdarling · 12/02/2023 11:56

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 11:11

This thread is surely a joke. No one will be arrested for going on a work trip to Dubai for 4 days. Its utter nonsense. I think half the people commenting are just getting their information from the Daily Mail. 🤣 The authorities will not hunt you down and jail you for being gay. Honestly op you do sound like a pain in the arse. I'm not sure proving a point is the best thing to do when it involves your career. They really won't give a shit who you share bed with.

I'm not a lesbian but I wouldn't go there either.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-woman-tourist-arrested-charged-jail-dubai-gang-rape-extramarital-sex-hotel-uae-police-a7420616.html?amp

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/11/woman-arrested-with-daughter-in-dubai-over-drinking-wine-is-released

metro.co.uk/2021/02/04/british-woman-detained-in-dubai-for-swearing-at-flatmate-on-whatsapp-14019865/amp/

saraclara · 12/02/2023 12:02

toffeecrisps · 12/02/2023 11:19

Can you really not comprehend why a gay person would not feel comfortable going to a place where homosexuality is illegal even if they are not going to "indulge in homosexual acts"?

Show quote history

I posted earlier regarding my gay friends who have been there/worked there. It was not remotely an issue for them. My posts are intended to reassure OP in the light of so many completely uninformed and hysterical posts on here.

ReneBumsWombats · 12/02/2023 12:11

She is not going to be indulging in homosexual acts in public.

She's not going to be what?

saraclara · 12/02/2023 12:13

@starlingdarling that news report about the woman who had a glass of wine on an Emirates flight was completely misinformed. She arrived in Dubai without the correct visa, got belligerent and abusive with staff, started to film them, and was then asked if she'd been drinking. She was arrested for her behaviour, not for the glass of wine.

I, like pretty much everyone who's ever flown Emirates, have enjoyed a few of their complimentary glasses of wine. They'd have to arrest nearly everyone on every flight if she'd been arrested for that.
Of course she'd have focused on that question and not on her own behaviour. Most people who are arrested try to find an unfair reason rather than have people know the rest of the story.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:15

Non of these are to do with being gay! Also, what a surprise that the woman was raped by brits! I think that anyone with an ounce of sense WOULDN'T go the police in Dubai/Qatar etc if they got raped. Surely you would know a bit about the place you're visiting before hand! I'm not entirely sure what the wine on the flight case is all about, I cannot make sense of that at all.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:24

After a quick look, it appears that the woman with the wine argued with officials at the airport and filmed them with her phone.

"Dubai's Attorney General says a woman who claimed she was detained in the city after drinking a glass of wine on her flight from London was actually held because she verbally abused and photographed an immigration officer.
Ellie Holman, a dentist originally from Sweden who now lives in the UK, was arrested on July 13 after getting into a dispute with an immigration officer over her visa, The Independent reported. "

Common sense would tell you that filming officials isn't really the best thing to do. Lots of Middle Eastern countries don't allow photographs of offical buildings, let alone filming immigration officials. The wine was a red herring and it sounds like she was being a bit stupid. I'm no fan of Dubai, but this thread is a bit OTT.

starlingdarling · 12/02/2023 12:25

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:15

Non of these are to do with being gay! Also, what a surprise that the woman was raped by brits! I think that anyone with an ounce of sense WOULDN'T go the police in Dubai/Qatar etc if they got raped. Surely you would know a bit about the place you're visiting before hand! I'm not entirely sure what the wine on the flight case is all about, I cannot make sense of that at all.

Ignoring the glass of wine (these stories were three that popped up when I Google foreign women arrested Dubai). Do you not see something wrong about going to a country where you shouldn't report rape?

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:26

saraclara · 12/02/2023 12:13

@starlingdarling that news report about the woman who had a glass of wine on an Emirates flight was completely misinformed. She arrived in Dubai without the correct visa, got belligerent and abusive with staff, started to film them, and was then asked if she'd been drinking. She was arrested for her behaviour, not for the glass of wine.

I, like pretty much everyone who's ever flown Emirates, have enjoyed a few of their complimentary glasses of wine. They'd have to arrest nearly everyone on every flight if she'd been arrested for that.
Of course she'd have focused on that question and not on her own behaviour. Most people who are arrested try to find an unfair reason rather than have people know the rest of the story.

Sorry, my phone has only just caught up!

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:35

starlingdarling · 12/02/2023 12:25

Ignoring the glass of wine (these stories were three that popped up when I Google foreign women arrested Dubai). Do you not see something wrong about going to a country where you shouldn't report rape?

Show quote history

Of course I see it is wrong. I'm not a moron. I personally wouldn't report it if it happened to me though. The waters are very murky with such things. I recall a few years back about a woman that reported being raped. She was a sex worker, which didn't come out until later, and for that she got charged. She was very silly. All the news reports were of shock and disgust... But actually it then came clear what happened and what her job was. She played with fire and unfortunately got burnt.

toffeecrisps · 12/02/2023 12:57

saraclara · 12/02/2023 12:02

I posted earlier regarding my gay friends who have been there/worked there. It was not remotely an issue for them. My posts are intended to reassure OP in the light of so many completely uninformed and hysterical posts on here.

Show quote history

Just because your friend is fine with it doesn't mean every gay person has to be.

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 12:59

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 12:35

Of course I see it is wrong. I'm not a moron. I personally wouldn't report it if it happened to me though. The waters are very murky with such things. I recall a few years back about a woman that reported being raped. She was a sex worker, which didn't come out until later, and for that she got charged. She was very silly. All the news reports were of shock and disgust... But actually it then came clear what happened and what her job was. She played with fire and unfortunately got burnt.

Show quote history

JFC are you saying she deserved to be raped because she was a sex worker?

notimagain · 12/02/2023 13:00

@saraclara

I posted earlier regarding my gay friends who have been there/worked there. It was not remotely an issue for them. My posts are intended to reassure OP in the light of so many completely uninformed and hysterical posts on here.

That ties in with my limited experience of the place. I used to go there a lot for work purposes, short stays, along with often a full spectrum of straight, Lesbian, gay etc colleagues.

Sticking to two basic rules - don't get pissed in public and minimal to nil PDA seemed to keep everybody out of trouble.

And as for the Emirates/drink story that has been introduced into the thread...kick off in immigration and filming officials will get you into major grief in pretty much any country worldwide, not just the Gulf and the ME.

I wouldn't however argue with the idea that the regime sucks on many levels.

LandlubbingKraken · 12/02/2023 13:00

I think some posters are missing an important point - lots of people wouldn't choose to go to Dubai, not necessarily because they think something bad would happen to them there, but because it would oppose their core values.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:03

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 12:59

JFC are you saying she deserved to be raped because she was a sex worker?

Show quote history

Nope. Why are you twisting my words? She shouldn't have gone to the police because being a sex worker is one of the worst things you can be in places like Dubai, where sex before marrage isn't even allowed. Can you not see why her going to the police was a huge mistake. Why would I think being raped was deserved because she was a sex worker? Do you think she deserved seeming as you came to that conclusion?

Gerwurtztraminer · 12/02/2023 13:07

I can see why people make decisions about where to travel (for work or leisure) or live, based on a principle that is important to them. Posters on this thread are mixing up to what extent a law is enforced in practice, and therefore the level of individual safety/risk involved., with the fact the law exists in the first place - which is the point the OP is making.

There are 68 countries which criminalise homosexuality and some are well known tourist destinations like Egypt, the Maldives, St Lucia and Kenya. If this is a principle that's important to your values, then presumably all those 68 countries are off the list of place you would go to.

There are moral and ethical debates about many other countries (like human rights breaches, access to abortion, treatment of rape victims and restrictions on women's rights) as well but to be comparable to this dilemma, it's whether those are enshrined in law or not.

If you feel passionately about a particular issue then yes, walk the talk and don't go to that country. Or in this case, raise it with the employer as a query about their committment to diversity & inclusion.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:09

*seemingly

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 12/02/2023 13:10

I would not go, and I would make it clear why. I wouldn’t go as a straight woman, never mind as a lesbian.

I agree with the pp who said make them justify their choice.

AnorLondo · 12/02/2023 13:11

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:03

Nope. Why are you twisting my words? She shouldn't have gone to the police because being a sex worker is one of the worst things you can be in places like Dubai, where sex before marrage isn't even allowed. Can you not see why her going to the police was a huge mistake. Why would I think being raped was deserved because she was a sex worker? Do you think she deserved seeming as you came to that conclusion?

Show quote history

You the one saying that's she was silly and that she played with fire. She wasn't silly, she was the victim of a horrific crime. You also said that the news reports were of shock and disgust until it was revealed she was a sex worker, as though that makes it less shocking or disgusting.

amoobaa · 12/02/2023 13:16

Animallover87 · 12/02/2023 05:37

Dubai is very safe for female travellers. Definitely safer than the UK.

Also, I would be wary of bringing my sexuality into my work life as it could be deemed unprofessional.

Not saying your principles are wrong OP, they aren't, but tread carefully from your employment point of view.

@Animallover87 Do you genuinely believe that gay people should never engage in any conversation about their partners, thei family, kids? If conversation arose about what people did at the weekend or
someone was getting married… you think only straight people should be allowed to engage in these conversations?

You realise that straight people discussing their partners or their marriages or the fact they have children is exactly the same level of cosclosure as when gay people disclosure

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 13:17

Dibbydoos · 12/02/2023 09:46

Hi OP, you cannot go to Dubai. Everyone thinks the Middle East is liberal, it isn't. Who knows what might happen to you if you go.

In my early career there was a potential for a major project in tge Middle East and i refysed to go. I said that noone should dictate what a woman wears, so find a man to do it. My Christian colleagues, then added their worries into the mix. Well, we didnt need to get strung up about it cos tge group CEO asked my director fir a reason not to take tge project on. He did so it never happened! Men are women's best allies :)

I'm absolutely despising these ads on MN. They keep freezing the site 🤬

You seem to be confusing the whole of the Middle easy with Dubai?
The UAE has decency laws as eg you cannot walk through a mall in a bikini , perhaps the same as you being asked to cover your hair in a church in certain countries? The same as Tesco dont allow men in bare chests into their stores? In Saudi which is probably the most conservative you do have to be covered but not in an abaya - a trouser suit or long dress covers that.

BusterGonad · 12/02/2023 13:22

You do not work in Dubai as a sex worker. It's one of the last places on earth you would do this. In the eyes of the law her being a sex worker was far worse than her being raped. Why in earth would she think going to the police was a bright idea? Can't you not see the point I am making? She complained about being locked up or having her passport taken away, I can't quite remember all the details, due to being raped, but it was more to do with being a sex worker. If I remember rightly I'm not even sure she was raped, I think the guy refused to pay her. I was actually in the Middle East at the time and it was all over the news outlets. Just why would a sex worker go to the police in Dubai???

amoobaa · 12/02/2023 13:23

@Animallover87 That should read:

Do you genuinely believe that gay people should never engage in any conversation about their partners, their family, their kids? If conversation arose about what people did at the weekend or perhaps someone was getting married… you genuinely think only straight people should be allowed to engage in these conversations?

You realise that straight people discussing their partners or their marriages or the fact they have children is exactly the same level of disclosure as when gay people join those discussion?

Basically, when a straight person mentions their spouse or their kids etc, you think nothing of it… yet based on your comment… if for example, a man mentions his husband or their kids etc, you immediately think ‘he’s married to a man, he is disclosing that he’s gay, that means he has sex with other men… that means he has gay sex… GAY SEX GAY SEX GAY SEX. Why is he bringing his sexuality into the work place!?!?’

MrsDubai · 12/02/2023 13:27

I notice that so many posters on here seem to think that women in Dubai are oppressed? They don't seem to think that this is a set up that many women there are happy with? It is part of their culture. I'm not saying that we as Western women do not see it as oppressive but I don't go to other countries and tut tut about how their women live - you could say this about most countries in the world. Sri Lanka is another that springs immediately to mind.

Having lived there for many years no one is going to know that you are gay and unless you try to kiss someone in public ( man or woman) then nothing is going to happen to you @ElizaDav ( if even then) Do you feel that you look "obviously gay" and that that would alert locals to jump on you and beat you up? ( this wouldn't happen)

It is YOUR choice regards your work but why should one (your) opinion alter the venue for everyone else? Dubai is one of the safest places because most people that live there are on a work visa and any signs of bad behaviour will have them deported. Men stare at women in Dubai as many are immigrant workers and Western women are unusual to see.

There are some ludicrous comments on here.

amoobaa · 12/02/2023 13:34

@Animallover87 do you think straight people should be treated the same way? Should they be banned from mentioning anything at work, that might give away their sexual orientation? So if a woman is about to get married to a man, she shouldn’t be allowed to mention it at work or disclose that she is taking annual leave for her wedding?

Surely, based on your logic, she shouldn’t be allowed to discuss any of this in the workplace… because if she does then she is disclosing her sexuality? She is letting everyone know that she is marrying a man and therefore she is bringing her sexual orientation into the work place.

The way you describe gay people, it’s as if you only recognise one thing about them- their sex life. It’s as if you’ve forgotten that straight people have sex too!

If straight people can mention their partners and their marriage and their kids, then why can’t gay people?

I’ve never once heard a straight person mention their spouse at work, and anyone respond, “I really think it’s inappropriate and unprofessional to be discussing your sexuality in the workplace.” So why on earth would you say that to a gay person? It makes no sense.