To worry about how right wing...

[TooBigForMyBoots]

...the UK is becoming? The scenes in Liverpool were shocking and I fear this is just the beginning.

I see you continue to engage in further Ad Hominem nonsense when you've no argument to make.

At no point have I used aggressive language with you OR insulting language. On the point about Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA being left wing socialists, I'm just much better informed than you are since I lived through it.

No, I'm simply firmly matter of fact here. Nothing more than that.

Yes, PSF/PIRA are criminals and murderers as are the Loyalist terrorist groups. But this doesn't take away their political ideology at all. See, criminals can and often are very politically minded.

It's clear you take an all or nothing approach to these groups which is obviously NOT based on terrorism and counter-terrorism studies. Mine is in addition to real lived experience.

So, yes, left wingers can be politically violent in furtherance of their purported aims. Not just the right.

You can attempt to deny this reality beginning with "they're not left wing!" and shifting the goalposts to "they're not genuinely left wing politically!". But it doesn't alter the historical reality.

This thread demonstrates a real reluctance to accepting extremism is also present in left wing politics.

The authorities are aware of this, but much of the general public are not.

Left wing extremist groups with weapons still exist within the UK. New IRA and Saoradh is an example. Indeed, they've been attempting to murder PSNI officers over the last few years, including fitting bombs to the underneath of their cars. Another example of a politically left wing terrorist group is the UVF whose political wing is the Progressive Unionist Party.

Left and right wing extremist groups are closely monitored by the authorities.

I've only read up to page 10. But

There were 1,400 young women and girls in Rotherham and hundreds more in other places who were utterly failed by authority, because the powers that be didn't want to inflame racial tensions.

Well yes. But there is a massive problem in the UK, generally and the police in particular of ignoring women, or accusing them of telling lies, if they report anything like an assault, especially if it is sexual. Women have been talking about this, taking to the streets about this, campaigning about this for a long long time. At least as long as I've been alive i think. It ebbs and flows.

The chances of one of the Rotherham girls - all carefully chosen - getting the police or anyone in authority, to take them seriously was minimal at best.

But lo! it came out that the perpetrators aren't white and BAM! it's suddenly a huge problem. I wonder how much attention the people of Knowsley took of their girls and women before the immigrants/asylum seekers started approaching them? The way men suddenly prick their ears up and get interested in defending women and girls when it's not one of "them" doing the abusing or pestering never ever ceases to amaze me. It's astounding.

The country is a powder keg at the moment and it takes very little to set people off. The governments over the last 20-30 years have moved steadily to the right of centre, with some very right wing attitudes in government members. The Labour party is moving towards the right, I'd put them at the centre at the moment, possibly slightly to the left of centre. Their more left-wing ideas have been rejected from what i can see - which is a shame because the NHS relies on actual socialism to work.

Extremes are never good. There have been comparisons upthread that life under Hitler was demonstrably better for most, than under Stalin and Mao - as though they weren't horrendous dictators hiding behind what they called "communism" but was nothing other than the worst form of extreme authoritarian dictatorship. (I have long believed that for some countries, UK included) a proper benevolent dictatorship would be the best for around 30 years to get it to a good place.

I'm also surprised to see people wondering why left wingers are racist or pro-brexit. In the 70s it was very common for entrenched labour areas of working class people to be very much "no dogs no blacks no irish" in many respects as they saw potential there for weakening the position of the working man (yes man, 60s and 70s unions weren't supportive of women in the workplace except in a few unskilled or secretarial roles, again because they saw it as weakening tradesmen's bargaining positions. In some ways, of course, they weren't really wrong there now most families rely on 2 wages)

I could live with a right of centre (or left of centre) government if i honestly believed that those in government genuinely wanted to improve the country, good jobs, good living standards, good healthcare and general prosperity. But i only ever see the government (including Blair's) as out for themselves personally and if it improves anything for the citizens of the country that's a bonus. A bug rather than a feature.

I see the thread has moved on. What is being discussed properly is whether the UK is as tolerant or accepting as is suggested in the media.

It plainly isn't, and those with longer memories are pointing it out. Brexit tells us it isn't. I'm not saying everyone who voted for Brexit was racist. But they were prepared to vote for a campaign that was.

Gina Miller who brought those cases to her credit absolutely knew this. She was soundly abused racially during those cases.

These are the realities. Despite a lot of window dressing by politicians, the media, and the civil service, the UK is less accepting than it was, and if Labour want to reclaim their Red Wall then they will need to address that - and it won't be done by finger wagging as to racism or special initiatives: the Corbyn era has put that to bed for a good while.

it's a lot more nuanced than just racism or left/right wing though. I think we need to go back to the likes of Marx to truly understand the class struggle.

When the gap between the haves and the have-nots is ever widening, the temptation to say "sod it, let's have a revolution and seize the means of production" looks ever more attractive.

the hero of the moment to many on the left Mick Lynch is a supporter of Brexit (just not this governments Brexit) but that seems ok with many

Unions, to their credit, are never in favour of anything that will reduce the terms, conditions and wages of their members. That is literally what they are there for, and it is why it took them so long to be convinced to treat women equally. There is no way a union will want to let in hundreds or thousands of low-skilled workers to be employed in place of low-skilled but (compared to immigrants) well-paid domestic workers. This is one of the reasons they were not in favour of FoM because they could see the damage that could be done to, say, brickies if loads came over from an EU country for 2 or 3 years to work on a building project, live 10 or more to a house, and not have to earn enough to pay for a house and a family. And that is why they, and others, fought so hard to preserve or implement minimum wage and wage differentials for skilled workers.

There are levels and variations. As pp’s have said, it isn’t simply a case of ‘Tories being bad’. Inequality skyrocketed during the New Labour years, due to a number that f factors. The result is now that working class people with no family support simply have no way of climbing the economic ladder. It was not always this bad: we did not always need qualifications involving tuition fees of £9k+ a year to do most jobs, and house prices were not 10x dual incomes. Work wages had not been held down deliberately for 20 years by the generation that didn’t have to face any of this. The last time inheritance was so absolutely necessary to secure a living here was mid-wars time, and then things were improving. Now they are worsening.

At the same time as the shift in economics back to a heredity system, we have had this growth of extreme left wing propaganda that leaves many feeling disenfranchised in their own country and unable to rate basic truths that they see in front of them.

The two trends are closely linked, as we have again a class system which results in wildly different experiences of life. Those at the top are determined to use their left-wing ideologies to stay there by denying validity of anyone else’s experiences. I can view that as quite ironic sometimes: other times, if my children are coming under attack by the drug gangs they never have to live near to for instance, I call it lies, propaganda, misinformation and talk about liberal fascism and inverted totalitarianism. Is that clearer?

I find it depressing actually that some are having to defend the idea that a society of 70 million people of such diverse backgrounds, and now thanks to that left wing, diverse cultures, cannot be reduced to a simple binary of political ideas. A binary, moreover, that has little inherent rationale and reason behind it any more and just seems to be a loosely cobbled together bunch of whatever seems popular to different groups. There used to be much more intelligent debate in politics in the early Blair years, back when there still was debate with reason expected.

It was due to alleged reports of males staying at that hotel grooming and approaching school girls. The rumours have not been proven or confirmed by the Police. A mob mentality was created. That area of knowsley is very white population but never historically racist or right wing. It was horrifying seeing it all going on. Ashamed of the area to be honest.

Been confirmed today that a Far Right group leafleted the area in order to inflame sentiment.

@Piggywaspushed thanks for that.

If you think the people if Knowsley are right wing you need to do some research. They are as left wing as they come. They are also concerned about the impact of the visitors on their community. The two are not mutually exclusive. And throwing around loose terms like 'right wing' to describe a community of people who are protesting is poor

The people who torched a police van and attacked emergency workers weren't local. The young person arrested and charged was not from Knowsley. They were an organised far right group. Other local protestors were certainly there but the trouble was centred on Patriotic Alternative members. I don't understand why people want to suggest otherwise to be honest and would seem to want to say instead that they were fully proportionate and reasonable responses from anxious locals.

I don't understand what you are saying.

Your last post indicates that there were extremists who hijacked the protest and caused trouble.

But the protest was valid anyway. There were peaceful, anxious locals there with genuine concerns. No amount of leafleting would make people take to the streets for a non-existent issue

We are an empire in decline. It’s inevitable. We’re holding onto the coat tails of the US for dear life because they were the next global empire, and we’ve not declined as fast as any of the failing empires I history, so we’ve done alright for ourselves. But the US is failing now and China is rising. You don’t look at Portugal and wonder what happened to that great empire, do you? Where did all their power and influence on the world stage go? That’s the UK. We are a declining empire. We’ll be another Portugal eventually as economic might moves its focus eastward. There is FA anyone can do about it, but I’m sure politicians can feed us bullshit about what we need to do, and their toadies and sycophants will rally round and pretend they can make Britain great again, so long as you vote for their banner and not any of the others.

They were local. You can see on the videos that they were local. Maybe not Kirkby local but most definitely Scouse.

Well said.

They've been busy. And are planning more "protests" next weekend. It's February. The summer is going to be a nightmare.

This, although I’m not fussed about Jane Austen…

And also this:

You have a strange view of the world when you label working class parents protecting the danger to their children as ‘right wing’.

Which quite frankly reeks of ‘worried about male rapists being housed in women’s prisons? You’re right wing’.

All male migrants arriving in the U.K. should be told that if they are caught approaching women for sexual or harassment purposes they will have their application for asylum cancelled and they will be immediately deported. I do not see the safety of women as an acceptable price to pay for the ‘safety’ of men applying for asylum.

I also do not buy the reasons as to why the vast majority of these ‘asylum seekers’ are able bodied men aged 20-40. Perhaps the real reasons will give you a clue as to why they think approaching women in this manner is totally fine?

Personally I want us to be taking women and children and resent the resources going on healthy young men who have clearly abandoned their families and small children 🤷🏼‍♀️

Let me guess that all makes me ‘right wing’.

Do you think they might be able bodied and young because of the arduous journey? Do you think they might already have connections in the UK, such as family? Do you think their people back home are staying in dangerous countries in the hope that any money earned in the UK may help them also to leave or support them?

Is there a set of 'asylum seekers' (your speech marks) who are acceptable? Would you now be OK with people from Syria given recent events? What about Ukraine? Afghanistan?

To be honest your speech marks and the word 'abandoned' tell me all I need to know.

By the way, it is made abundantly clear to anyone who arrives here that is they break laws they will be imprisoned and likely deported.

And, can I just repeat again , not one of those (white British) authors has been removed from any teaching syllabus anywhere. Dickens and Shakespeare are very prominently on the GCSE spec. Shakespeare is the only author students are required to be taught from KS2 onwards in schools, in every key stage. I still find the addition of Virginia Woolf bemusing and amusing.

Here is an article about how the far right group PA operate , for those who care to or want to read it
TLDR : they co opt local issues in various ways in order to inflame any existing tensions, to recruit and to spread hate and division. Their views are abhorrent. Small at the moment, but, as the article says, organised and relatively effective.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/15/patriotic-alternative-trying-to-inflame-local-tensions-in-britain-to-spread-far-right-stance?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1676445220

(I note the reframing of the word 'local' upthread to include 'anyone with an accent of the region'. I normally wouldn't care if protestors weren't local if they were supporting others in a peaceful way : but this is a group purporting to be concerned locals, protecting their local community and a group who are deliberately stoking tension in areas they themselves have nothing to do with - last week Knowsley, next Dunstable it seems...)

The ‘MET’ have no role or responsibility for monitoring ‘terror’ anywhere outside London. This is a meaningless statement.

Actually I think the met do monitor terror across England and Wales. They have more responsibility and resources than local police forces. They are the met for London but also the specialists in certain areas countrywide.

No, I don’t think any of that. I think women and children are valued less than grown men, and as such they have no qualms in making a run for it while they face whatever horrific regime they’ve left behind. I also think those grown men see the journey as the final leg in getting to somewhere which (allegedly) has more generous benefits than the numerous safe EU countries they have just passed through.

If their home country was that dangerous, why on Earth wouldn’t they take their family with them and just not come to the U.K.? Apply for asylum in the first safe country they reach instead?

None of it makes sense yet I feel we desperately scrabble around to make excuses for them because we know the truth underneath.

Thats why Ukrainian refugees have been so welcomed - because they’re women and children, the men stayed and are trying to liberate their country rather than running for it.

But no doubt I’m ‘extremely right wing’ for saying all of that 🤷🏼‍♀️

'making a run for it while they face whatever horrific regime they’ve left behind.'

This is an interesting phrase. The regime is horrific but they are 'making a run for it'. That's an interesting framing of being a refugee. I assume you really wanted to put horrific regime in speech marks. I think it's pretty abhorrent to frame refugees as cowards.

There is currently a film on Netflix iirc called , I think, Swimmers. Maybe watch it. It'll answer a lot of your questions.

Would you take small children yourself on these journeys? Many do, as it goes. Some die.

You can engage in whatever semantics and word play ‘reading’ you want, it changes nothing. You’re facing a murderous regime, what do you do:
a) leave your family behind for many months to face it while you run off to a country which allegedly has great benefits
b) all go together and apply in the first safe place you come to - perhaps not as ‘great’ (I say this tongue in cheek) as the U.K. but you’re all together and all safe

It should be a no brainer, shouldn’t it?