To be horrified by these ‘baby boxes’?

[TheObstinateHeadstrongGirl]

This just came up on my newsfeed and I’m absolutely horrified by the whole concept of women abandoning their newborns in the US:

www.newschannel10.com/2023/02/10/newborn-surrendered-baby-box-installed-less-than-3-months-ago/?fbclid=IwAR1qz7BbrIeF390b6YXl4mAscw82cTvt-Bzwnp_LMaZMMCjBcpltEZGHav0#ldzrvrvoa7ecauugx04

Im NOT having a go at these women, and this is supposedly to prevent newborns being abandoned in unsafe places.

But surely the answer isn’t “Hey brand new mum with raging hormones, probably depression, who is tired, stressed and not thinking straight - put your baby here for a nice new family” - it should be about supporting mums with PND, improving practical support, healthcare and rights of new mothers and reproductive rights. Not just “Oh well you don’t feel OK today so probably best you don’t be a mum, here’s a little box to pop your baby in”.

My spidey senses were tingling so when I did a bit of further research, the woman who started these is, of course, fiercely anti abortion. So that’s what it’s all about. it’s about not allowing women their reproductive rights but making them go through a birth they don’t want, have the trauma of having a baby they don’t want but it’s OK, and the heartache of giving them away - no harm done ey 😡

Babies will be abandoned whether these boxes exist or not. Thats evidenced by the fact that in the UK, a country with free medical care, a decent amount of maternity leave, free and easy abortion access etc babies are still abandoned.

Now I could (and have in the past) waffle on for ages about how better the UK could support parents, and how poverty, a shotty cms system, defunding of sure start centres etc makes things worse for parents.

But the reality is in the UK it is easier (and free) to access the medical care you need. And yet still babies are abandoned, as they are in Europe etc.

Therefore even if America legalised abortion across all States and made it free and easy to access and put in good post natal care to detect and treat PND and better maternity leave etc it still might not eradicate people abandoning their babies.

And in the meantime there are babies out there who have been abandoned who could die from cold/heat exposure etc. And so they need to be protected too.

And whilst I understand you do not like the founders anti abortion stand, something I wholeheartedly don't approve of either, this is also a woman who was herself abandoned as a baby. I don't judge her for wanting to improve things for babies in the same situation as she was in even if I do disagree with her stance on abortion.

But I think her being abandoned has more of an impact on her starting this than her being pro life. And this must be an incredibly emotive subject for her and its not that surprising she is arguing she should have had a better (safer) start to life rather than she shouldn't have been born.

Finally (and I know this is a long waffley post) I think what's important to remember about these boxes is that they also protect the mother in many countries.

It is usually illegal to abandon a baby but by placing a baby in these boxes it becomes a legal way to do it. And that important because its often the only legal way open to women in certain situations who don't feel capable of engaging with social services etc

Men can and do frequently abandon babies and get away with it. They can leave a baby in a house with a mother who is high on drugs or an alcoholic and they still generally won't get arrested for abandoning a baby even though it can be just as unsafe for the baby as leaving on the steps outside of a hospital. But women, especially women where the father of the baby is uninvolved often don't have any options unless there is a baby box. Do it protects women as well as babies in a way.

Yes a society where these are not needed would be wonderful but babies have been abandoned for centuries and I would rather these boxes were available and not used because we have improved society to the point of not needing them, rather than not have them at all. I wish they existed in the uk.

Well those things are not going to happen in a click of a finger.

In the meanwhile……………

I think baby boxes or their equivalent have been around since medieval times near convents/ churches. Better than the unwanted babies abandoned on rubbish heaps in London which prompted Captain Coram to establish the foundlings hospital, and infinitely better than the cardboard box my friends parent abandoned him in.

Abortion is sometimes the answer though. And in the US it's being removed for many as an answer. Are you anti abortion yourself? Sounds a lot like it. I'm going to bet my right arm you're religious too.

Surely it's not news to you that there are very, very poor women who live in the US, and that mental health issues, along with drug and addiction issues, exist everywhere, even in wealthy countries?

Many of these baby boxes exist in US states where the infrastructure, poverty, education and living standards, along with lack of benefits, are shocking. The baby boxes are much better than these babies being abandoned and left to die by desperate mothers.

You can have as much support as you like with amazing maternity rights but you will always have women and girls who have been exploited and fallen pregnant and no amount of legislation will stop what happens to some women sadly. I have met the sort of women who may be desperate enough to use a baby box. Women that have fallen prey to trafficking, brought up by a heroin addict and pimped out by her own Mother as a child which was why she ran away. MH issues are talked about a lot more now and I welcome this but in the context of depression, really enduring horrific conditions and their behaviours are still not really understood or discussed because so distressing. I have worked with a girl who set herself on fire and seen a young girl who had smashed her own head in to a wall multiple times. I have met a woman who gave birth alone when still a child herself.

Some of the most loving Mothers I have ever met were ones who had given up their children to give them a chance of a normal life, they had MH and addiction issues that were severe and hard to control. All these years later I still think about them.

no the opposite, the person who puts the baby in is given information on how to contact the service if they change their mind, and the service tries to find and get in touch with the parent to work with them if they want to change their mind. Both things that can happen because putting the baby in one of these boxes is not illegal.

If a mother abandons her baby in the park not only does she not get contact details for whoever finds the baby, for if she changes her mind, she has also done something illegal making it very hard for her to get the baby back if she did change her mind.

Are these boxes not in support of 'pro-choice' then? Supporting the mother to make a choice not to have an abortion if she doesn't want it? I do sometimes find for some people that the only option if you are 'pro choice'= abortion?

You're horrified that some women would rather leave their baby in a safe place where they will receive immediate care, than abort them? That is seriously twisted thinking.

Baby safe haven surrender spaces have been around in the US for years and years.

It is a very good idea in a country with difficult access to abortions and a lack of education on contraception.

I’m glad they are there because the alternatives open to desperate women are what horrify me.

I really wonder if some of these charities do really contact the mothers and support them, or just go 'here's another hopeless one, quick let's find a 'deserving' family'. I'm with you OP, I think more support is needed for the mothers and these boxes aren't thinking of the mother.
The fact that so few babies are left abandoned in the UK speaks volumes.

So if these didn't exist, for some women you'd be taking away THE CHOICE to leave their baby in a safe secure place. They'd either have to kill their child, leave it somewhere unsafe/cold/where they might not be found, or go "official" by contacting authorities, which they might be ready to do. Surely it's you being anti-choice? 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think you are reading political motives into this when it’s just a woman trying to help babies.

Sometimes people miss abortion cut off dates.

Sometimes people are in horrendously abusive relationships and for whatever reason cannot or will not keep their baby.

Sometimes girls are raped and impregnated by family members.

Sometimes girls/women hide their pregnancy from everyone, after being in denial for months, and consequently can't have an abortion.

Sometimes homeless women and/or addicts give birth on the streets.

People living horrific or chaotic lives aren't often able to seek the help they need or meet deadlines. I'd rather leave my baby in a safe place than smother it with my bare hands or leave it to freeze to death on a park bench.

Better access to abortion is needed but it wouldn't solve all of these problems.

Surely that's because abortion is freely available here? It's not exactly difficult like it is in some countries. And the benefits provision is much better too.

I agree with you that addressing the root causes of this issue is the desirable way to tackle it.

But that will take years, even decades, and might never come. It needs legislation, agreed on by all parties, and change to laws at federal and state level. I haven’t noticed too much consensus around the rights of women or those needing healthcare in the US, have you?

In the meantime, do you think we should just allow these babies to be abandoned elsewhere, unsafely, possibly dying, or being abused when they are discovered by someone - if they ever are?

This is an age-old, safe and practical solution to a problem which will not go away with wishful thinking. I hope one day the world will be a better place, but it’s going to take a while and I would rather babies dying avoidably wasn’t collateral damage while we stand on principles.

I think it’s better than the alternative.

The box let’s off a sound when a baby is placed in, so they are never in there for long.

Yes, more support for the parents should have been the first resort, but forced birthers, would prefer this. Birth the baby and give it up for adoption.

They are able to change their minds too so if it was spur of the moment they have a window to change their minds. I think it's better than dead in a bin.

The boxes being scrapped won't provide all the other things. As the situation is the box is a last ditch safety thing for a desperate woman. I don't think the woman's ideas on abortion are relevant in this instance, these babies are here and need protection.

They're the modern day equivalent of leaving a baby on the steps of the local church. They're not designed as a form of contraception or an option you elect, they're an absolute last resort for the woman who is about to leave baby somewhere far less safe.

They are not a new thing and exist in lots of countries:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch

Yes it's really awful and the US needs to have a hard look at itself to see why they are required in a wealthy country in this day and age.

I'd rather there was a safe place a woman could come for help with her baby if she couldn't cope.

Exactly. Once the baby is born, it can't just be about 'thinking about the mother' the alive person that is the baby needs consideration just as much.

I agree abortion isnt always the answer. Every other day on MN there are posts from women regretting an abortion. And posts from women who are being pressurised by partners into an abortion they don't want.