To ask for help- husband witnessed a death

[bingbangbongding]

Hi all,

Need help.

Husband was leaving work today and found a colleague dead in his car. He was about 50, was still warm. He asked passers by for help but no one would help him. Everyone had left work.

He called 999 and they got him to drag this man out of the car and perform CPR even though he said he was dead. It didn't work.

The ambulance and police arrived and the ambulance worked on him for a while. Police dismissed him immediately (didn't even want his details which I thought was weird).

He's absolutely shaken and has decided to get quite drunk (understandable).

Has anyone been through this?

How can I support him? I'm terrified he's going to get PTSD or something.

If he does facebook there’s a gp group called Chain of Survival for those who have had similar experiences. They have useful links and resources too. Horrible shock for him.

If it helps at all OP, talking over the times and worrying that it took too long to call 999 or start CPR is an understandable and normal reaction . Also moving a persons body and doing CPR are very physical acts so that physical memory (& all the senses recall) naturally stay a while , his talking about it is his brain processing it and trying to make sense and how to store it

This man's family - down the line- will be so grateful that their loved one wasn't found dead the next day in the car unnoticed. That your wonderful observant DH noticed, tried to wake him through car windows and then called 999 and did CPR on him whilst waiting for paramedics - to try all attempts to save their loved one's life.
He did a very good thing. Not just for this man but also for his family to know that.

The same happened to me in a sainsburys carpark. And also when I asked for help I was told not to bother as this chap was elderly and assumed dead. But the cpr training in inadequate in the UK and I was raised in Australia where we have a lot of cpr training due to the water. Plus I had extra training when I had kids. The guy was still warm and no sign of blueness on his lips etc. It is true that it’s difficult to survive severe heart attacks unless action is taken quickly and I had only seen this man inside the shop 10mins prior. I tried my best for his family’s sake and when the ambulance came they tried too.
From sainsburys perspective it was a bit of a shit show as I was literally 20 steps away from the front door and I assumed they had a defibrillator which I had been trained to use. But when the manager finally came when they called him off his smoke break he said no defibrillator and also no first aider to help me. When a stranger took over cpr from me I remember googling defibrillators and realising they are harder to track down than you think.
the first few weeks were hard as I kept thinking what I could have done differently. To cope I developed an action plan in my mind of what to do if it happened again - which may seem unlikely but this is not the first person I have had to resuscitate in sainsburys ironically. 20 years ago I had to resuscitate a staff member - I wasn’t the first on the scene I was the only person nearby who knew cpr as the training for it in the uk is not extensive. Again on that occasion no staff member came to help me either.
Also to help me process I sent my family on cpr / Debriflatobor training.
I avoided that sainsburys for a year. But I am ok now. Time heals.

the Uk needs to up its game in terms of training so people know what they need to do in these circumstances.

I don't think the resuscitation officers at the hospital will help you.

It's not a hospital patient and he doesn't work there.

If l had a phonecall by a member of public requesting this, I'd advise them to seek help via his employer or charities who offer CPR training.

My DC had to perform CPR on a driver who collapsed at the wheel and sadly he didn't make it. Poignantly, she was only able to do this because she herself is a survivor due to CPR. She has no lasting trauma from doing so, although naturally it shook her for a little while, especially as it was part of a much larger incident.

You need to stay calm and reassuring for your DH, OP. Keep reminding him he did absolutely the right thing, and it will be of enormous comfort to the poor man's family in the future to know everything possible was tried, and that somebody cared.

I have ptsd from childhood abuse and I also agree that being scared for my own life caused it (and the repetition over many years).

You dh did so well and can be proud of himself for being brave. Genuinely - most people wouldn't be able to do what he did.

Let him talk as much as he wants but at the moment he is in Adrenalin and once that's gone, he may just need a cry and a sleep.

@Sparklynewname our resuscitation team do a debrief if we need it after any emergency. I had one when I had to do CPR at work on a baby. (Got her back) and it was very helpful.

The CPR had no chance of resuscitating him, so DH doesn't need to feel guilty that he couldn't bring him back.

Wow no passer-by who bravely steps in has any reason to feel guilty. Only about 10% are successful.

My mum died very suddenly and I will always be incredibly grateful to the amazingly brave lady who was there and tried her best in impossible circumstances. Performing cpr on a stranger when you aren’t a healthcare professional is an incredible thing to do whether it’s successful or not and you should be really proud of DH.

I dunno, there’s comfort for me in the fact that when it happened someone was there who cared that much. She found it difficult after and it was a bit weird almost having her dragged into our tragedy from nowhere. I think she did get over it though but it is such a big shock.

This is a really sad and moving thread. I hadn't realised so many people experience this - the idea of having to CPR a very dead stranger is a bit horrific, and I think who've done it should be very proud of themselves.

It's making me think - I've had CPR training a few times in the distant past. I sort of feel like I should know how to do it, but it's a bit rusty. In the event, I'd feel I'd have to have a go, but I'd be very unsure if I was doing it right.

Would just reading up on it from time to time be enough, or do we need to do regular top up training?

And I always wonder how you'd know CPR was the right thing - do you assume anyone not breathing needs it, not matter what the issue might be?

I work for the ambulance service and death (in a variety of situations) is sadly a regular occurrence of the job. But on joining nothing prepares you for it, the first time going to a cardiac arrest was traumatic for me, but sadly you do get used to it :(:(
I’d advise your husband to reach out for counselling if he feels he needs it and he can contact the ambulance service who would be happy to give him a debrief and talk him through

sadly there’s only a very very small portion of cardiac arrests we do actually get back, but the fact he gave it a go is an amazing thing and he should be proud of his efforts

In addition if we go to something traumatic (say fatal rtc or paediatric death) were referred for counselling. We’re then given two weeks and if we’re still effected we can go forward with it, but most the time the two weeks is enough to process and move on

We went through similar last year with a family member- they had a cardiac arrest and my DP tried to resuscitate them
It was incredibly traumatic at the time and for a while, I kept getting flashbacks, as did DP
Talking things through definitely helped. I dealt with the coroner and even talking to the person there and to the GP, who issued the death cert (hence I had to go through the whole event in detail to them)

look after yourself too, it’s hard to support someone through trauma like this 🌸

Straight away, if his employer has an Employee Assistance Programme, he should make contact.

As this was an employee death in service on premises (assuming that this was a workplace car park), there should be a an HR in-house team working to bring together support for everyone involved, e.g. family of the deceased, any employees there at the time, & immediate colleagues. But as this happened on a Friday afternoon, they may be slow to muster this team.

However you can, make contact with the HR team to let them know that your DH was involved as the company has a duty of care.

I wonder if the CPR is so that the family can be told every effort was made to save him and that it was not a lingering death or that it was anyone's fault.

Well it's because there's still a chance of CPR working. It may only be 10% but that's still a chance. The highest chance someone has of surviving a cardiac arrest is immediate CPR and the use of a defib.
OP well done to your DH for attempting to save him, that was a wonderful thing to do. He shouldn't feel guilty about anything. He may just need some time to process it, I wouldn't jump to PTSD.

About five years ago, I came out of a meeting into a car park and found a man on the floor next to his car. Lips blue, but still breathing. I ran back inside to get them to call for help/a first aider, then waited while the ambulance came. They worked on him for a long time, then put him in the ambulance. At one point, they had me holding the bag of fluid in place of a drip stand. He was obviously dead before they moved him, though they didn’t say that.

I talked about it constantly for a few days, then it began to fade. when I think about it now, it’s just a thing that happened, shocking at the time and very sad for him family, but no lasting damage to me.

When I was 16 I was coming home on the train one night. This man got on and sat in front of me a few seats up, we were facing each other. He was probably 55-65 and during the journey fell asleep. The conductor came along to get his ticket and couldn’t wake him.
The guy had literally sat down and died….right in front of me.

The train stopped at the next stop for an ambulance etc but he was quite clearly dead, I had to get my parents to pick me up and I was scared and upset about it for a long time, first few weeks I made my mum sleep inbeside me. But eventually it started to fade and I was okay, I don’t forget it ever but I was fine after a month or two.

Your husband did a really good thing - however useless he may have thought it was/it proved to be. Bear in mind the other man's family might want to get in contact to thank him. It's very common for someone who has given CPR or used a defibrillator to be shaken by the experience. It's not something most of us will ever do. He does need time to rationalise things and should not blame himself for delays to treating the man. In the same way others wouldn't help your husband, there may well have been people who saw the guy but did nothing. That's not something your husband could have changed.

It is unlikely that one distressing experience will cause PTSD, but if it does, self-medication with alcohol is contra-indicated.

Don't worry about PTSD unless you are a few months down the line and he's getting intrusive dreams thoughts or images - they are normal at the beginning. Alcohol understandable but best not used to block it out. The brain will be processing a shocking experience and the fact he was rabitting to you is really good. Let him talk, not avoid going back to the place if he feels ready, process his feelings as they evolve. Take care x

He's not massively talky normally and he has rabbited on at me all night so I know he is in shock.

That is a really good sign, and also a really healthy thing to do to prevent PTSD. I would encourage or allow him to talk it out, no matter how repetitively for as long as he needs, over the next few days. And if he is troubled by images and feelings or horror or anxiety, seek professional help sooner rather than later. But only a certain percentage of people exposed to a traumatic event develop PTSD.

Let him talk it out, it will definitely help. Please keep reassuring him that he did all he could as well. He is definitely in shock.

I am first aid trained and helped a lady once in a tourist resort who had "passed out" when she came around she was really not making sense. Her adult daughter was really concerned so I sat with them while they waited for the ambulance. Events quickly unfolded and she ended up collapsing sideways from being seated. I put her in the recovery position as she was still breathing.
When the ambulance arrived they said she was having a heart attack and I had done the right thing.

It was only afterwards that I rabbited on about it for months! Questioning myself, had I acted as quickly as I could. Etc

He will be going through the same. It's only natural.

My friend went through this when she happened on a traumatic car accident. The 999 operator kept insisting she try cpr but she refused as they were so obviously dead. She did get ptsd and it took her so long to get the help she needed, the systems aren’t in place to help witnesses of a death. Emergency workers all have systems in place to help them deal with situations like that ( and so they absolutely should). If I was you and your OH, I would be looking for help right now, don’t let it it spiral.

There is some new research suggesting that complex moving games like Tetris within the first 24 hours after a trauma can actually prevent the trauma from "sticking" within your neurons and causing PTSD. But ultimately, letting him feel sad and upset with a calm listening ear will help him more than anything.