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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

552 replies

NeedToChangeName · 29/01/2023 19:13

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
RichardBarrister · 30/01/2023 10:12

You mis-spelled transwoman.

No I didn’t.

Transitioned 10 years ago = well established transition, clearly nothing to do with the prison process.

What does that mean exactly? and how does it have any bearing on the prisoner’s likelihood to be a threat to women?

Non-violent crime = no evidence of violent inclinations. Thankfully our courts are evidence based; you cannot assume someone has committed a crime with zero evidence because the conviction rate is crap. You cannot prove a negative, as you ought to know.

As men commit 98% of all sexual offences we have decided as a society that women need some spaces away from all males both for privacy (many women don’t like getting naked in front if a man and don’t want to see random male genitalia) and physical safety - men are stronger and can commit rape.

It has been proven that identity is not a factor that makes the risk any less. In fact, recent census and Ministry of Justice stats shows:

1 in every 585 ‘transwomen’ in England & Wales are convicted sex offenders
compared with
1 in every 2750 men
and
1 in every 243,000 women.

Obviously we can’t prove a ‘negative’, but we look at the available data and make a judgement accordingly. I’d say the data is pretty clear no?

When making national policies that need to apply fairly and consistently across a population, we don’t look at one non existent theoretical individual and make decisions or special exceptions for them, we make fair rules that apply to all for the best interests of the majority.

Btw, all the trans identifying males we have identified as currently held (very recently released, or moved for harming women) in female Scottish prisons are violent sex offenders.

FOJN · 30/01/2023 10:16

Btw, all the trans identifying males we have identified as currently held (very recently released, or moved for harming women) in female Scottish prisons are violent sex offenders.

Hardly surprising, certain paraphilias are much more common among sex offenders.

RubyTrees · 30/01/2023 10:26

Helleofabore · 29/01/2023 21:06

I think this should be posted on each page at the moment. The petition to get a debate in parliament to discuss how to strengthen the equality act to better protect all females.

Of all genders. Even if they choose to not think they need the Equality Act to protect their needs. (I suspect many understand that they still need those protections though, as runningoncoffee seems to)

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2?page=1

👆Please please sign this petition and share - we really need this parliamentary debate.

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 10:29

If a transwoman has been living as a woman for years, had no prior criminal history and is going to do time for fraud I can see why they would go to a women's prison.

This is the nice, harmless, gentle male prisoner that the media and political lobby try so very hard to tear your heartstrings for, in order to sell the general public on the abandonment of human rights for women.

Let's instead look at some of the actual male prisoners who have been cleared for transfer to the women's estate.

Peter Laing, now known as Paris Green. Serving 18 years for torture and murder. Moved before now because of sexual activity with female inmates reaching unacceptable levels.

Daniel Eastwood, now known as Sophie. At the end of a life sentence but too violent and dangerous to be released, and murdered a cell mate through strangling them with a shoelace.

Andrew Burns, now known as Tiffany Scott. In the media at the moment as had been approved to move to the female estate following 'risk assessment', multiple assaults on staff including a nurse while in the estate, stalked a child from prison, has been known to tear open veins to spray blood at staff.

Katie Dolatowski, convicted of voyeurism and sexual assault one on a 12 year old girl and one on a 10 year old girl, both took place in women's toilets. Repeatedly breached restrictions by court including using an alias to access a refuge space with vulnerable women and children. Assaulted a male prisoner while held in the male estate of prison, and was then moved to Cornton Vale women's prison.

Since rumour has it that Bryson would have made for the 7th male in the women's estate as a double rapist. Looking at this list and the reality of this policy - no, we are not talking about sweet, harmless males who committed fraud, this policy has exposed women prisoners to these murderers and serious sex offenders.

If male prisoners are at risk in the male estate then the male estate needs sorting out. If to provide a specialist TQ+ male facility would mean distance from family and friends, well male prisoners can have a choice: the male estate near family and friends, or the TQ+ specialist unit. Which is a hell of a lot more choice than women prisoners are being given.

I am sickened by the never ending sad sob stories of how hard it is for these males, when the reason for all the emoting is to force them in with women. And no one has the slightest interest or care for the feelings, needs, experiences, traumas and struggles of those women. The rules for the protection of bloody therapy dogs are stronger than they are for these women.

Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 10:30

well established transition

err... like Alex Drummond? One could say Alex is a very prominent 'well established transition'. And we all know Alex hasn't had Alex's cock chopped off.

And even if a male had no cock, What other vulnerable male do you @LastOfTheChristmasWine think should also go into the female prison estate.

Let's compare 'like for like' then since you brought it into the discussion with your comparison of woman on woman violence.

Like for like. Vulnerable male vs vulnerable male.

Why one and not the other?

It cannot be that 'TW are women' because we have now seen that logic crumble. Between the effort of a 'woman' being rejected from being sent to a 'women's prison' - because females aren't rejected, so that mantra is now demonstrably false, and a well known trans barrister making declarations that also proved the 'if they say they are trans they are trans' mantra false too. All that is left is fact and logic.

So. The fact is male = male and cannot be changed even with the most passionate of wishes.

If a male who had lost their penis due to cancer was in jail, why would that male be treated any differently to a male who opted for extreme cosmetic surgery to modify their body?

Why wouldn't that cancer survivor be filing a discrimination law suit? He would have been discriminated against and not allowed to be put in the female prison.

No. When it is all stripped bare, your 'if they are truly trans' argument, which is what you are attempting to argue here, fails.

Woman are not human shields for any male.

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 10:35

Is the test for 'truly trans' that a male is given the right to make women uncomfortable and vulnerable, invade their space and require absolute enablement, and then proves that no woman has been actually physically hurt?

Is this the test? We expose the women, with all the harms to them, and unless there's a body count of injury or worse afterwards the male was true and sincere?

Look at the males approved for the women's estate. Look at the percentage out of seven that are violent, serious sex offenders. When the numbers are this high even just in the 7 approved, is this not starting to imply something? Pattern recognition is not a hate crime.

lifeturnsonadime · 30/01/2023 10:36

I am sick to the fucking teeth of these men and these systems that enable men to ride roughshod on women's rights.

Women have been socialised to be kind and that is why people always come up with these stories of the poor tax evaders who identify as women.

No male, no matter how nice they are or what clothes they wear, pronouns they prefer or haircut they have should be in a woman's prison, ever.

Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 10:37

Just repeating this for any poster who is still supporting some males being in female prisons.

For those who deny there is an issue with males who are in female prison estates. And who don’t even bother to consider the impact on female prison staff. Maybe this will bring things into perspective.

www.canlii.org/en/on/onwsiat/doc/2022/2022onwsiat1544/2022onwsiat1544.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQALVHJhbnNnZW5kZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=5

Summary:

Female prison officer in female prison told that duty that night was to watch male on suicide watch. The prison officer told her manager she was a child sex abuse survivor and didn’t feel she could do it. The manager said there was no one else and to do it until manager could find replacement. None came.

CSA survivor had to watch male wanking and going to the toilet. Male knew a woman was watching.

Prison officer took employer to tribunal for PTSD and retraumatisation.

It isn’t just about the inmates. it is also about female prison staff EVEN when male is ‘segregated’.

How about posters deal with the fucking reality of the situation instead of the lovely nice inclusive feelings they get throwing other women's needs under the bus.

Who are you being kind to? The women in the prison estate who cannot leave? The female prison officers that may have to conduct intimate searches or who have been abused or assaulted (I mean Scott did that while in a male prison - assaulted a female prison officer there).

Who are you being kind to?

Enjoy that feeling based on all the lovely emotive nonsense.

The rest of us will continue to be fucking unkind and stand up for our families and other women who are in prison instead.

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 10:37

Rather like good old fashioned witch ducking, isn't it? This stick a male in the system and then check for the female body count to test the male's sincerity.

Tie the woman up, toss her in - if she dies in the process then she is vindicated as having spoken the truth.

Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 10:38

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 10:35

Is the test for 'truly trans' that a male is given the right to make women uncomfortable and vulnerable, invade their space and require absolute enablement, and then proves that no woman has been actually physically hurt?

Is this the test? We expose the women, with all the harms to them, and unless there's a body count of injury or worse afterwards the male was true and sincere?

Look at the males approved for the women's estate. Look at the percentage out of seven that are violent, serious sex offenders. When the numbers are this high even just in the 7 approved, is this not starting to imply something? Pattern recognition is not a hate crime.

yes nilshammer I believe it must be from listening to White the other day.

A male giving other males access to women who cannot escape....

Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 10:39

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 10:37

Rather like good old fashioned witch ducking, isn't it? This stick a male in the system and then check for the female body count to test the male's sincerity.

Tie the woman up, toss her in - if she dies in the process then she is vindicated as having spoken the truth.

maybe that is what the 72 hour segregation is for?

If they can survive that without harming any one, they must be all good.

Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 10:46

Pleasepleasepleaseno · 30/01/2023 09:46

I think if they've had sex reassignment surgery - so no longer have a penis - it's pretty different to a man just deciding one day to call themselves a woman and expecting everyone around them to join in the game. In that instance, especially if its a non violent or sexual crime, then its correct that they are not locked up with men. Not sure they should automatically be put in with women either to be fair but they are going to be more vulnerable themselves so probably need a specialist "trans" unit somewhere.

They need to be put into a unit with other vulnerable males.

This perception that they are now different to males needs to stop being spread.

For anyone who still thinks that these males are somehow different, what makes them different from a male who has lost their penis due to injury or illness?

What exactly?

Petesbowtie9 · 30/01/2023 10:48

If it’s ok for men to be in a woman’s prison why aren’t there mixed sex prisons ?

Rainbowshit · 30/01/2023 10:55

Males and females should not be incarcerated together ever. Full stop. It's a human rights issue.

The Geneva convention and the Mandela rules state that makes and females should be housed separately for their safety privacy and dignity.

MrsSkylerWhite · 30/01/2023 10:58

Meowandthen · Yesterday 19:30
If the person has a penis they do not belong in a women’s prison. Pretty simple really.“

Well, quite. No idea why people tie themselves in knots over complicating this.

Munchyseeds2 · 30/01/2023 11:19

Runningoncoffeealone · 29/01/2023 20:53

I'm pre-surgery but have been on testosterone for a good while now, and I've wondered about this. As someone who completely understands and backs women not wanting men (or transwomen) in women only spaces, I'd hate the thought of going into a female prison after fully transitioning. I know it could cause distress to those who have gone through SA, DA etc.
At the same time, I can also see that it would cause backlash if transwomen were made to go to men's prisons, but transmen could go to the prison they identify as.
I've read through a lot of the comments on here, and honestly - I wouldn't be averse to being separated, on a different area, either in a male or female prison. That said, not breaking the law is also an option.
I know some people are innocent and wrongly locked up, but for the majority who aren't....maybe they should have thought about this before they broke the law.
Bottom line being, if they don't want to go into a men's prison, then they shouldn't rape women.

This is it for me

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 11:28

I think it can be reasonably asked:

What are the statistics on transmen being a sexual or violent threat to men? I'd anticipate this being very low indeed.

What are the average crimes on which transmen are convicted and what percentage are serious sex offenders or have committed serious crimes of violence? Again, I'd anticipate these being very low indeed.

What are the current reasons behind the prison service stating they cannot manage the safety of a transman in the male estate? I'd anticipate this being around the risks of male behaviour towards a biologically female person. (For some reason this matters in the male estate but not in the female estate. Although the same problem.)

Specialist TQ+ units might meet the needs of TM who are never really given anything like equality or parity with TW on anything much, and who seem to be coping ok in sex based prisons because they have no choice but to. Again: to offer this choice to TM would be to provide more choice than anyone but TW get at the moment.

HermioneWeasley · 30/01/2023 11:30

I’ve just seen this on twitter. Women in prison were deliberate collateral damage for a wider trans agenda

To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women
Helleofabore · 30/01/2023 11:33

Yes. I remember reading that quote a long time ago.

it is good to remember.

And to remember that some female people seem to hate other female people so much they consider them expedient for that female’s acceptance as a ‘man’.

Morton. whittle. They have a lot to answer for.

FOJN · 30/01/2023 11:46

I’ve just seen this on twitter. Women in prison were deliberate collateral damage for a wider trans agenda

The agenda has global reach and yes they are coming for your kids, it's all part of the strategy. This article from the Spectator explains it but also contain a link to the original 65 page document so people can read it and make up their own minds. The document titled "Only Adults? Good Practices in Legal Gender Recognition for Youth" was prepared by one of the world's biggest law firms, Denton's.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 11:50

FOJN · 30/01/2023 11:46

I’ve just seen this on twitter. Women in prison were deliberate collateral damage for a wider trans agenda

The agenda has global reach and yes they are coming for your kids, it's all part of the strategy. This article from the Spectator explains it but also contain a link to the original 65 page document so people can read it and make up their own minds. The document titled "Only Adults? Good Practices in Legal Gender Recognition for Youth" was prepared by one of the world's biggest law firms, Denton's.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists/

That document has some eye-opening stuff. Like this:

"Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 11:50

That's on p20. Posted too soon!

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 11:55

And on p14:

"states should take action against parents who are obstructing the free development of a young trans person’s identity in refusing to give parental authorization when required."

Tanith · 30/01/2023 12:09

I want to see the data.

How many trans prisoners were being assaulted in the male estate in the UK and how did it compare with other men? And I don’t mean the anecdotal “I was raped 1000 times a day and double on Sundays” claims from trans women who want access to the women’s prisons.

A few years ago, everyone took for granted the trans remembrance days to reflect on the millions of trans people said to be murdered each year.
Then we asked for the actual data and discovered no trans people had been murdered in the UK for years! There weren’t that many elsewhere, either - nothing like as many women.

Why are we believing these liars now?

purpledalmation · 30/01/2023 12:29

A prison officer from a women s prison in Scotland said today even non dangerous trans women in female prisons are disruptive.

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