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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

552 replies

NeedToChangeName · 29/01/2023 19:13

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

Please read this news story

And, if you think it's an issue, please keep reading / refreshing the story / sharing it

The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2023 23:03

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 22:59

Agreed. I actually can't imagine how the trans women I know would survive a male prison... Makes me shudder to think what they would go through.

Why does the thought of what a gender non-conforming man might go through in a men’s prison make you shudder more than the thought of a group of locked up women suddenly having a man placed amongst them and having to share a private space with them?

Why can’t men’s prisons be adjusted to protect different types of men? Why is the solution to shield them with women, regardless of how they feel?

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 23:04

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 22:59

Agreed. I actually can't imagine how the trans women I know would survive a male prison... Makes me shudder to think what they would go through.

Why? What makes them different from other very vulnerable males?

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2023 23:03

Why does the thought of what a gender non-conforming man might go through in a men’s prison make you shudder more than the thought of a group of locked up women suddenly having a man placed amongst them and having to share a private space with them?

Why can’t men’s prisons be adjusted to protect different types of men? Why is the solution to shield them with women, regardless of how they feel?

My trans women friends aren't men so I can't answer that for you.

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 23:04

Why? What makes them different from other very vulnerable males?

They are not males so I can't answer that for you.

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 23:12

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

They are not males so I can't answer that for you.

In what way are they not male?

howmanybicycles · 02/02/2023 23:15

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

My trans women friends aren't men so I can't answer that for you.

TW is a subset of men so they can't be TW if they're not men.
Man is a biological statement. It has nothing to do with identity.

Kucinghitam · 02/02/2023 23:20

<Gets popcorn >

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 23:21

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

They are not males so I can't answer that for you.

Are you referring to transitioned females (transmen) or transitioned males (transwomen)?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/02/2023 23:22

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 22:59

Agreed. I actually can't imagine how the trans women I know would survive a male prison... Makes me shudder to think what they would go through.

A judge in Wiltshire feels the same way. So she's not sending them to prison at all.

extract

A convicted child rapist who is banned from owning internet devices unless approved threatened to kill herself when one was found at her home.

Alex Smith, who is transitioning from male to female and is formally known as Matthew Burren, was arrested after officers carried out an unannounced visit to her home in yesterday (1 March).

On arrival, she was asked whether she had any internet-capable devices they were not aware of. She told officers she did not, however, when they logged onto the router they found an unknown Samsung mobile phone connected to it.

Smith denied any knowledge of the device, but when challenged she indicated towards a red coat in the room. The Samsung mobile phone was subsequently found beneath it.

She then picked up a pair of scissors, walked towards the officer and said “I’m going to kill myself”. She was arrested and taken to Gablecross Police Station where she was charged and remanded in custody overnight.

At Swindon Magistrates’ Court today, the 28-year-old admitted breaching the terms of a sexual harm prevention order (SHPO) – which prevents her from owning internet-enabled devices without seeking permission from probation service officers prior – by failing to declare the device for inspection.

(continues)

Judge: I’m not going to send you to prison today, and the reason for that is because you have very very complicated issues. You’re currently undergoing gender reassignment… I would be very concerned about your safety.^

“You are very very very vulnerable. That’s the only reason I am not sending you to prison. If you were not vunrable, I would probably send you to prison.

“Other people are made vulnerable by you. You have got to stop this offencing. You need to know if you commit and more offences, you will go to prison.

“If I am in this court again, and you commit further offences, I won’t want to, but I will send you to prison.”

Judge Dickens imposed a 26-week prison sentence but suspended it for two years.

She also ordered Smith to complete 40 rehabilitation activity requirement days and imposed a new – indefinite – SHPO. The terms include the prohibition of approaching children under the age of 16 and allowing a child to enter or stay at her home address, amongst many other strict conditions.

www.wiltshire999s.co.uk/transitioning-child-rapist-who-breached-order-spared-jail-over-prison-safety-concerns/

Helleofabore · 02/02/2023 23:27

NowDoYouBelieveMe

You know Stonewall told everyone that no trans people denied their sex. And that to do so was very harmful.

I would hope that you would not be denying your friends’ sexes. That would be wrong of you .

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:32

Kucinghitam · 02/02/2023 23:20

<Gets popcorn >

You can put it away again. I've said what I think and I'm not going to waste my time debating my women friends with this lot.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/02/2023 23:33

Matthew Burren was originally convicted of raping a five-year-old girl, by the way.

What sex is he?

ReneBumsWombats · 02/02/2023 23:33

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:32

You can put it away again. I've said what I think and I'm not going to waste my time debating my women friends with this lot.

Well actually you haven't said what you think, hence the questions being asked.

But this answer is illuminating enough. Thank you.

ComfortablyDazed · 02/02/2023 23:38

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:32

You can put it away again. I've said what I think and I'm not going to waste my time debating my women friends with this lot.

Gosh. You didn’t last long.

Can’t even answer the very first reasonable questions put to you.

NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2023 23:42

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

My trans women friends aren't men so I can't answer that for you.

Well that explains your position at least. If you can’t acknowledge reality, there’s no chance of you acknowledging women’s feelings either.

PugInTheHouse · 02/02/2023 23:50

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:11

My trans women friends aren't men so I can't answer that for you.

Don't be ridiculous, of course they are. Their sex is male, they have chosen their gender as female but that doesn't make them biological women so they should not be in female only spaces.

Kucinghitam · 03/02/2023 00:36

Oh dear, did The Righteous run away in a fog of name-calling?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 03/02/2023 00:50

I want to know who agrees that Judge Dickens made the right decision.

Happylittlechicken · 03/02/2023 06:13

@ComfortablyDazed its cos you didn’t put smiley faces and kisses on it. The TWAW find any questions without those things ‘vicious’ and horrendous attacks so won’t answer. Apparently 😂

Helleofabore · 03/02/2023 06:30

NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:32

You can put it away again. I've said what I think and I'm not going to waste my time debating my women friends with this lot.

You are no true friend if you are denying or supporting them denying their sex.

If they and you cannot understand the difference between sex and gender that is rather dangerous.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 03/02/2023 06:40

People who say that transwomen have a terrible time in men’s prison and therefore should go in women’s prison equate men being raped as the worst thing in the world and women being raped as normal. They’ve normalised the rape of women. In prison, of the most vulnerable group of women in society. They are saying it’s okay for these women to be raped. Most of them have been exploited outside, now exploited inside with government consent up to date and no doubt again unless we fight for men free prisons.

Happylittlechicken · 03/02/2023 07:01

Do these people claiming TW have a terrible time in prison also realise gay men, Gang members and sex offenders also have a terrible time in prison. Do they all belong in the female estate too. And If TW (who are male) would have a terrible time, surely TM (who are female) would have a worse time?

lifeturnsonadime · 03/02/2023 09:17

This reply has been deleted

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lifeturnsonadime · 03/02/2023 09:18

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision

That's an appalling decision. No wonder so many offenders are finding an inner identity.

howmanybicycles · 03/02/2023 12:37

Kucinghitam · 03/02/2023 00:36

Oh dear, did The Righteous run away in a fog of name-calling?

...again!!!!

What the righteous don't care to think about is that in order to make an argument that a betesticled or our sexually dimorphic species is anything like me, they actually have to define my identity for me. So denying a trans person's identity is literally violence but denying mine is fine. This ridiculous situation must not come to light and is best hidden by name calling, tantrums and actual violence. Any attempt at conversation risks bringing the strategies out of shadows hence they don't converse.