To think trans women don't belong in womens prisons for women

[NeedToChangeName]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64444530

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The longer this is kept in the public eye, the more politicians will know that it's a concern

There are men running rape crisis centres which purport tp be female only. Their are men in women's rape crisis groups. These atrocities are accepted because of gender ideology propaganda. There ade men I women's prisons. Not all of those people who do not respect women's boundaries have a grc. Even if they do, these spaces are segregated by sex not identity. Most of the women in those spaces will not share an identity with the men. The men's behaviour in these circumstances is abusive. Why would you not want to make life easier for such marginalised people?

My mother was in prison, posh girl.

Clara, we are still waiting for you to tell us the difference between a transwoman rapist and a violent female offender that means, despite both being dangerous, only the latter belongs in a women's prison.

Your deflection on this is boring, tired, lazy, transparent, interesting, but it's not making anyone forget the question.

But I am so glad that Clara is bored of talking about prisons. That means the women in prison just dissolve into non-existence, don't they?

They're like Tinkerbell- if Clarabell isn't thinking about them, they disappear. Their distress, their fear, it all melts away.

Oh wait. No they don't.

Don’t start about prisons, we’ve done that to the death and I’m assuming you’re not in prison. YOUR needs/rights/spaces? What’s the impact been?

I use changing rooms. I use public toilets. I might need to stay in a hospital. I use medical services where I could reasonably expect to be seen by a female provider. I use the gym.
I want to retain single-sex spaces. The best-case-scenario is that I avoid them, make my life smaller, avoid medical treatment.
Worst-case? I get raped on a hospital ward and told that it's impossible as no male patients were present.

If twaw, they should be in women's prisons. Do we ever stick actual women in the male estate?

Anyone who says twaw is arguing that tw should be locked up with women.

Your comparison with gay rights is completely flawed. Heterosexual people were the powerful ones. Women ate the oppressed groups. If you want to stop listening to the oppressors then you need to know that is it men - of all identities Inc TW, who are the oppressors.

Well there was the middle aged man in wig and frock masturbating in a ladies' toilet.

You're telling me he was entitled to do that in law?

It’s called the equality act. It’s there to make sure everyone regardless of gender, race, religion and a whole range of protected characteristics aren’t subjected to discrimination.

It’s needed because unfortunately minority groups tend to be misrepresented and discriminated against in many aspects of life.

They don't, that’s just something that has been stoked up the in UK. I’ve asked a few people on here what specific rights of theirs have been affected (not prisons, none of you are in prison) - I’m still waiting.

I honest to God lolled when Clara challenged us to provide recent examples of women's rights being eroded by self ID, apparently so sure that there are none.

Sports/opportunities: Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas, Tammika Brent, Emily Bridges and every woman who compete in the 2016 Summer Olympics Women's 800m. None of the medallists were female.

Safety: Tammika Brent again, the four victims of Karen White's sexual assaults in prison, the child assaulted by Katie Dolatowski in a women's toilet.

Misc: Mridul Wadhwa, who was not a woman legally or biologically and yet secured a job as CEO of a rape crisis centre that was specifically supposed to be restricted to women only. Went on soon after to tell rape victims who wanted only natal females to perform intimate examinations that they should reframe their trauma and reassured us that bigots were still allowed to receive support. Why thank you.

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There are loads more. Did you think pretending you didn't know about them somehow wiped them from existence?

I cannot believe this level of ignorance. I'm wondering if it's even ethical to have a battle of wits with someone who has come so completely unarmed.

There is actually no point in speaking to you is there?
You will fully ignore or twist anything that doesn’t suit your agenda.
I could list situations where I have come across Transwomen in female spaces but you will probably say I’m lying or that it was fine because they didn’t hurt me.
Would it have been better if they had? Would that mean I had a right to object to their presence? I am sorry I didn’t allow a TW to fit my teenage daughter for her first Bra in Debenhams but maybe I should have so I had “legitimate” cause for complaint
You have no idea what I have done to try and safeguard women’s rights but from your posts I think we can safely assume more than you

It’s there to make sure everyone regardless of gender, race, religion and a whole range of protected characteristics aren’t subjected to discrimination.

Gender isn't in there, posh girl. It has sex and gender reassignment.

@Clarabell77

You don't mention sex in your list of protected characteristics. Why is that?

Women are discriminated against. Massively.

If 'trans rights' don't trump women's rights then its OK for women to say no to males in female spaces eh?

My right to not share a space with a male who could harm me is as important as a trans persons right to not be discriminated against.

What do you mean?

I regularly use single sex spaces. I went to a single sex school.

My daughter plays sport - and as we all know, women’s sport is already being infiltrated by male-bodied people.

No, I’m not in prison, but I care about women who are, being forced to be incarcerated with male-bodied people.

Your use of the word ‘YOUR’ - shouted in CAPS - makes me think you don’t think of them as your spaces, so I’m assuming you’re not a woman, and therefore couldn’t care less.

I also note you side-swiped my assertion that because you don’t think rapists belong in women’s prison, you agree that transwomen are not women. As such, I’ll take it that you agree.

clarabell

not prisons, none of you are in prison.

So because it's not me in prison, she doesn't matter. Are you a sociopath?

It’s called the equality act. It’s there to make sure everyone regardless of gender, race, religion and a whole range of protected characteristics aren’t subjected to discrimination.

Don't you mean sex, not gender?

@Clarabell77 a point you may not know because it's been largely a banned topic, is that of autogynaephilic males. These men get off on the idea they're able to wear their fetishes in public, under cover of so-called progress. Many formerly good (or at least not awful) organisations have been captured by these males and this way of thinking.

I'm sure you will be horrified to learn that such men are provided safe passage to women's wards, changing rooms, toilets, prisons, group sessions in rape crisis counselling services and other places where women require privacy and dignity, and safety.

Many women are now opting to shut themselves out of various areas of public life because of such males.

It's because we have to be wary of such males that you will likely not elicit stories. We know our words can be used as masturbation fantasises for these kinds of men.

Don't believe me? This is one topic that's starting to break into the public consciousness (below).

Don't care? Tough. We care. We do not consent. And you cannot override our consent.

Women said no. Get over it.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/22/britain-becoming-sick-trans-debate-facts-can-cure/

"The legislation is part of a trend in which transgenderism and gender fluidity are normalised and made mainstream in culture. This is the kind of cultural context in which charities like Mermaids and even the NHS through its Tavistock clinic helped young people to make irreversible decisions to change their bodiess_. It is how governing bodies allow female sports to be ruined by trans athletes. It is how the BBC website joyfully writes up stories about children becoming drag queens, and cross-dressing men are invited to read to primary school pupils in schools and libraries.

It is how nobody stops to ask how many such men are moved to act in these ways through their own sexual desire. Autogynephilia, the feeling of sexual arousal some men feel as they pretend to be women, is according to some researchers behind many or even most cases of gender dysphoria among those born as men. It is legitimate to ask whether non-consenting women ought to be participants in such sexual fantasies."

we’ve done that to the death and I’m assuming you’re not in prison.

Clara, just because you don't give a shit about vulnerable people unless you're one of them doesn't mean we feel the same or that such people don't deserve protection.

My God, we've got to this now. Any second now, I predict: women get raped anyway so it doesn't matter if they get raped more. Go on, Clara...

I've encountered this before, but normally they lapse into shamefaced silence when I mention my mother.

Clara is the first to come back with a variant on "yeah but it's not you"

The barrel is being scraped!

So it’s only women in prisons then?

Does that offend you, Clara? In that case, I assume you'll take this up with the TRAs who admitted they went for women's prisons because they thought that once they'd eroded sex-based protections there, it would be easier to destroy them elsewhere too. After all, nobody gives a shit about prisoners, as you have so amply demonstrated.

Still wondering why a trans rapist with a penis doesn't belong in a female prison when a violent woman does...

It'd been answered
Not sure what is making it hard for you to understand. Also, you don't understand the equality act. Sex is a protected characteristic even if you don't want it to be.

Your use of the word ‘YOUR’ - shouted in CAPS - makes me think you don’t think of them as your spaces, so I’m assuming you’re not a woman, and therefore couldn’t care less.

But - but - Clarabell is such a pretty, feminine name!

The “spaces” obsession is embarrassing. Do you not know that trans people are already entitled by law to use your “spaces”? So I hate to break it to you but how they identify is not irrelevant.

It depends what you mean by ‘your spaces’. By law everyone is entitled to use the spaces provided for their birth sex.

There is no legal entitlement for trans people to override this and use spaces set aside for the opposite sex.

The protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment in the Equality Act only means you can’t be treated badly for being trans, it does not confer the rights of the opposite sex. The protected characteristic of Sex means that anyone of the opposite sex can be lawfully excluded from certain spaces regardless of their identity.

There is some discussion now following the Haldane judgement as to whether ‘Sex’ is the EA is now a legal category rather than a biological category. Her ruling says it is a legal category which can be entered by obtaining a GRC (this is why the GRR is such a problem).

So currently, for the 6000 ish UK GRC holders, they may be able to claim discrimination based on Gender Reassignment if excluded from a space as their ‘Legal Sex’ implies they should have access. This is not good for women and needs to be corrected so that it is clear that Sex in the EA means biological sex (an immutable characteristic either male or female ) not ‘legal sex’ (a mutable characteristic acquired by means of a GRC).

The relevant fact here though remains that the vast majority of trans identifying males don’t have a GRC and are therefore legally male and can be lawfully excluded from female only spaces.

The fact that Stonewall has persuaded thousands of organisations to bring in policies that ignore the law and allow self id of male people into female spaces is another story.

Interesting that the discussion of people with a penis in women's prisons has been 'done to death' - but it hasn't been resolved, has it? I'm assuming that Clara has little or no comeback to the very real concerns posited, so wishes to ignore that live issue now, in the forlorn hope that she finally gets thrown a new one she can more competently engage upon?

Do you not know that trans people are already entitled by law to use your “spaces”?

At the moment, that applies only to trans people who have been through the necessary process to obtain a GRC. As far as I can tell, that system appears to work well. I'm not aware of the small number of GRC-holding transwomen under the current rules causing any significant problems.

Once it applies to anyone who just says they feel like a woman, a problem arises that will be obvious to everyone. Although some people will do anything to deny it. Why do these people so badly want women to have no safe, sex-segregated spaces? I don't know. Enlighten us, Clara.

Why doesn't the trans rapist belong in a female prison when a violent woman does?

Women's spaces affected by the creep of genderism:

Any children in schools faced with mixed sex toilets.
Any women who has faced mixed sex toilets in a public building.
Any woman who's used Primark with their disengenuously labelled 'women only' changing rooms.
Any woman who's encountered a voyeur in a mixed sex changing room at a swimming pool.
Any woman in hospital who's encountered a male in a single sex ward.
Any woman who doesn't want to encounter a male in a confined space.
Any woman who doesn't want a male HCP.
Any woman who entered a competition that was up until recently 'women only'.
Any woman looking for support after rape or dv.
Religious women.
Women with a history of trauma at the hands of men.
Women who require single sex spaces for privacy and/or dignity.

All of these women now have to consider that spaces previously understood to be single sex have been compromised and destabilised by the bullshit assertion that men can become women and that men are entitled to women's spaces.