Why do people keep voting the tortes in again and again

[Thomasina79]

Not wanting an argument, just wondering. Another Tory has been dismissed for dishonesty and day after day we hear of stories about people having to choose between heating and eating. Surely people realise we need a change of government? The NHS and other support services such as teachers are on strike. What next?

Activist.

😂is that meant to be an insult?? What's the matter, run out of elitist buzz words to throw around?

Imagine thinking being passionate about something and taking action to support it is a negative thing. In any event, it's far better to be an activist than an elitist bootlicker, your masters won't reward you by the way, they'll fuck you over just as quickly as they'll fuck me over given half the chance.

Not having read the whole thread, my take is that people do it because they believe that the Tories protect the individual. They ultimately are looking to protect themselves and their familes, and believe that labour would take more off them to fund public services they don't personally think will benefit them.

Looks like there are a lot of us activists (what a weird choice of insult) around right now.

www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

@Thebestwaytoscareatory Your comment assumes that political parties act like democracies; in fact some women have been banned from joining Labour and others had their membership revoked for doing as you suggest.

Oh how micro-aggressive of me. I do hope you were not too offended by my use of ‘a*tivism’ in that post. You may need a lie down.

Keep going. you’re following all the rules in the ‘how to become a good little critical social activist’ guidebook to a T.

funny that you rarely find them in the feminist threads, because they know people in there are versed in this sort of queer theory narrative and they can’t get away with it.

And yes there are a lot of you. Enough to swing the pendulum so far to the left on MN that people are afraid to say what they really mean and to stifle proper debate.

and that if they do the virtue signalling herd will rally and shut them down through shaming them.

it’s been going on for years.

as I say, just search ‘Tory’ and see for yourself. There is always a post like this trending because the CSJ fairies make it that way.

I'm very cynical about some posters on here.

However I do agree women's rights probably won't be an issue on it's own but mixed in other topics.

I think the big topics will be the economy, health and education.

Health and education well that's a problem because I'm in Wales where Welsh Labour have run those for over two decades and while reasons are often given for their poor performance at some point you have to hold the governing party as at least partly responsible.

I also think demographically we are reaching a point where NHS and social reform need radical change and we should look at how rest of Europe manage - I cant see any of the current lot doing that including Starmer.

I'm waiting for Labour to win me round persuade me they can do better - and given local Labour MP it would have to be impressive - they haven't done that yet and Tory bashing and saying floating voters like me must be Tory isn't helping. We're likely two years out from a general election - a lot can happen before then - in mean time I am watching all the parties and what they say and do.

The issue of self ID isn't about women's rights; its just that so far its mainly been women speaking up against it.
And that's been a massive problem because no one listens to us until its too late. At which point people scream 'why didn't feminists do something about this?'

The economy, health and education are almost always the issues that sway any political argument although gender rights and sleaze may well still be an issue at the next election.

For about a few days under Liz Truss there were policies I support (and no, I have no problems with the free market tanking the pound - that fine - it should have been left to do its work). However even the socialist high tax current Tories are better than Labour so we are where we are.

I agree. Although I suspect the bond market couldn't have taken much more in terms of the fall out from the mini-budget.

For those asking if we Tory voters regret our choice as the Conservatives have become a high tax party, no I don't. I strongly believe Labour would increase tax on higher earners. They've always been about the big state and that comes with a corresponding tax burden.

What does worry me is the level of public debt and how we're ever going to make inroads into it. It doesn't feel sustainable, particularly given an ageing population.

The issue of self ID isn't about women's rights; its just that so far its mainly been women speaking up against it.

I know but it's in education - what the schools are teaching. PE lessons, sex ed - it's in NHS were money is being spent - some positions that get funded and mixed wards and priorities and outcomes.

I've seen people say when asked in polls it doesn't come up as an issue - I think it is there hidden and mixed in with other issues often taken as a sign that things are not being run right and priorities aren't straight- or worry things could get worse given what other parties come out with.

That's becuase they do it individually not collaboratively.

There are around 400,000 labour party members, some of whom tow the party line, some of whom quietly disagree and some who openly dissent. It's easy to get rid of a dissenting voice if they're alone or in a small group.

However, there are around 46,000,000 registered voters. I believe women make up slightly more than half the electorate but to keep things neat well say there are 23,000,000 female voters.

If just 2% of them got together and joined the labour party to collectively campaign for change, they'd outnumber the current membership. If 10% did this they'd outnumber current membership almost 6 to 1. If for some reason labour barred them all from joining they could instead form a new political party and have the largest memebership of all.

Change requires effort, change isn't easy, and change won't come by re-electing tories, who have shown for 12 years where their priorities lie.

I'd say for the last decade or so, it's because people bought into populist lies about everything being the fault of the EU. And Brexit = Tories.

I am not and never will be a Tory voter, but I don't find it hard to understand why people vote for them. They're much more unified than Labour, most of the time. They're good at campaigning. They have an easier ride because right wing messaging is about 'we must defend x from y' whereas left wingers need to get across a more complex message about the greater good.

A lot of people in run down areas equate Labour with hand outs, if you're from a poorer background but worked really hard for what you have, you probably hate benefits culture more than someone from a comfortable background.

For older people it might be tradition, protecting assets and property, memories of shambolic 1970s Labour governments, wanting a more professional-looking set of people, wanting to avoid change.

If there were a few new parties in the mix with fresh messaging, I think Labour and the Tories could be chucked out pretty rapido, they're both a bit stale.

NHS and social reform need radical change and we should look at how rest of Europe manage

Look across the Channel to France where a million plus turned out to protest yesterday against Macron's proposed reforms to national pension age. En Marche suggests it should be increased by two years, from 62 to 64, because otherwise an intolerable tax burden will be placed on younger generations of working people. France's ratio of debt to GDP is already about 107%, even higher than the UK's which is just under 100%. At some point, the state runs out of people to tax or exhausts the willingness of people to pay.

All Western Europe is ageing and having to consider new approaches to health, education, pension funding and social care expenditures. Just raising taxes to spend more isn't the whole solution.

Whaaay you've found some new buzz words to use, well done you. Unfortunately, I'm not offended at all, you can call me the worst thing you can think of if you want, it's all water off a ducks back, as you lot love to say "the words of a sheep are of no concern of a wolf". (I think I've got that quote correct, my elitist is a little rusty.)

I'm glad you think I'm setting a good example by following the guidebook, I'd say the same for you but I'm not overly familiar with the 'how to be a good little elitist puppet guidebook'. Probably because there isn't one now I think about it, you lot just do exactly what you're told without question.

And the reason you don't find many of us on the feminist board is becuase it's filled with small-minded people, hyper focused on a small issue. All there is on there is trans this, trans that, trans whatever, it's boring and largely irrelevant to me. Oh that's right, you've mistakenly assumed my reasons for opposing toryship is grounded in "queer theory" didn't you? It's not, I'm focused on much bigger issues than that.

I wasn't suggesting just raising taxes for NHS - though we will probably need to.

I was think more the many systems of taxes, insurance and small co-pay amounts with safety nets for poorer people across many European countries have - I'm sure they may well have downsides but we seem to be doing worse than most of them.

Or at the very least figuring out how to pay for social care so hospitals aren't backed up.

Frankly I worry of we do nothing we'll end up very like USA health system which is the worst possible outcome as both major parties avoid difficult national conversations and continue to piecemeal and privatise out of public eye.

Personally I don’t think the issue with the NHS is how it’s funded, it’s about how the money is spent and its separation from social care. The investment by the Blair government was closely linked to performance with clear targets and repercussions when those targets weren’t met. Everything was working pretty well until the Lansley reforms that saw £4 billion spent on making it worse. Reforms that are being quietly undone. Just imagine what that £4 billion could have achieved if it had been spent on frontline services with the requirement for measurable improvement.

I liked generally liked Blair government but PPI was a big mistake in many ways.

The problem is NHS funding will need to increase because the increasingly elderly population put more demand on health services that just how it is - taxes are one way but the amounts involved are becoming politically problematic.

The demographics in Blair's time weren't as bad or rapidly getting worse as they are now. (Though immigration and being welcoming to that could help there)

But I'd agree along with extra funding - and how that's raised - there is a huge issue with how it's spent where it goes and could the money be made to do more.

However even cross parties talks haven't sorted out social care or its funding and attempts so far to do so go down badly with electorate - so I wouldn't expect great things there from next government who ever that is.

My opinions on the NHS, its funding, remit and day-to-day operation have been well and truly aired on MN over the years, under this and previous usernames.

It is a matter of record that I favour a more European model of multiple providers and co-pay mutual/state/employer provided insurance, or an HMO type system. If it is more costly for me, as a reasonably solvent adult/pensioner, then I am happy to pay my contribution to a group-mutual scheme, but NOT one that can exclude on the basis of age or pre-existing conditions.

I would object very strongly to the UK individual BUPA model which covers little and excludes almost everything.

Blossom the tories did indeed do that 2018 consultation, but Mrs May came to our rescue and did not change the law as far as I remember.

The thing that absolutely infuriates me about the issue of the ageing population is that it was clear as day that it was coming down the line for 60 odd years yet no government of any colour appears to have even thought about it. Our entire political landscape is built on short termism with no political party looking beyond the next election.

Completely agree that the NHS under Blair was a peak, except PFI but those were bad contracts negotiated by civil servants who lacked commercial acumen, as most do.

And I agree with @Blossomtoes that social care provision is a carcrash, but unless/until it's properly addressed by an all party commission, then it's not going to improve.

May was all for it @Xenia. It was David Davies leading a few rebels and the DUP who saw it off.

Demographics was the exclusive territory of actuaries until the mid-1980s, which is a long time ago but the first article I read in the UK was "The Pig in the Python" which the FT published about Christmas 1988 IIRC. I read it on a plane.