Was I Unreasonable - wheelchair Space

[Nicetomeetyou25]

Hi, My DC ( 10 ) is a wheelchair user, we have to take public transport to school and honestly where we live is a nightmare. Some of the London buses still have a very small area where wheelchairs and pushchairs can go. I know else where there is no priority but on London buses it is stated very clearly wheelchairs are priority and pushchair need to be prepared to fold. School runs can be crazy because there tends to be a lot of pushchairs. I never ask a pushchair to get off and always wait for a bus that we can fit on. Every day a particular school mum beats me to the bus stop and she really does make sure she stands in the correct place to get on first and I usually allow this.

yesterday I could not be late home so I collected DC a tiny bit early and took them to the bus stop before the school bus stop. Got on bus and we arrived at the bus stop with usual pram getting on ( I should have added that she has a double stroller )

I had placed DC in the correct wheelchair position so sideways with back against the wall where stairs are as it is how the buses even say you have to.
she asks me to turn DC around so there was more space for her to get in side by side. I refused. She said she didn’t understand why I wouldn’t. I explained that I wasn’t willing to change position as it wasn’t safe.
She goes to bus driver and kicks off to advice him that there was enough space of I just turned the wheelchair around and placed it behind the pole.
she got off in a bit of a strop and called me selfish.
was I being unreasonable ?

This.
i didn’t have twins but had two very close in age and the oldest was a very late Walker, couldn’t stand independently when the youngest was born.
I just got off the bus like you as couldn’t have held both and fold pram

It depends what type of double stroller you have, the side by side seats one or the on top of other one. Either way they’re bulky but I meant more the side by side one. I’ve been an au pair for someone who had one of these years ago (not twins!) and she drove everywhere but it was quite cumbersome to push around.

I’m not saying parents with twins or children who do require a double stroller should not travel on public transport but in places like cities where the bus is likely to be busy (I was also meaning a single decker bus as well as double decker) then I think you maybe have to think creatively about how you travel and maybe using fold up pushchairs. At the end of the day, you as an able bodied parent twins or no twins (and young children needing a buggy) are more able to get off the bus or move in order to accommodate a wheelchair.

And yes, like I said before, I feel more strongly about this since gaining a paraplegic relative. So try to put yourself in the wheelchair user’s place, they cannot do a thing about their disability nor eg the fact that the vast majority of the tube is inaccessible to them as it’s Victorian in structure (Barcelona was an absolute dream though, street to platform/ticket kiosk elevators, staff who’d lay down a small ramp so he could get on and off a metro train etc).

Er what are you on about? I only had about 2 instances when a wheelchair user needed the space in the 2 years or so that my twins were in a double buggy and both times I got off without complaints! I'm not a dick! I totally realise life is much harder for wheelchair users. I just take issue with the comment about double buggies being too wide for a bus and implying people shouldn't bring them on.
Yes we used a side by side once they were past 4 months. Just so you know the one above the other type is 1) not foldable which the side by sides are its just not practical to do that when youre alone on a bus with the babies 2) impossible to get up stairs or kerbs and 3) really bloody heavy because the weight is all in one place. I would 100% have chosen one of those if they were more practical because obviously nobody wants to use a buggy that's too wide to fit places if they can avoid it. Most twin parents aren't using a massive side by side just to piss off other bus users for their own enjoyment!

I really hate it when people get all snarky about double buggy users when they don't want or can't fold them. As long as they are happy to leave the bus instead why does it matter? I used to get tuts if I dared to enter a coffee shop as well! And just so you know double buggies are a similar width to an average size wheelchair. So if it's too narrow for a double buggy it's most likely too narrow for wheelchair too and therefore illegal.

Having said that the OP is absolutely in the right to use the space and ask the buggy user to move, or get the driver to do so. It's a wheelchair space.

Some bus companies do get it right. My 6yo is in a disability buggy and they’ve made others fold or get off the bus so he can use the allocated space. You get some tutting and whispers about how he’s too big but as a parent of 2 disabled children my skin is probably thicker than an elephants by now.

C8H10N4O2 Did you even read my post?

In my view, anyone who refuses to make space for a disabled passenger shouldn't be charged, they should be made to get off the bus (and possibly banned from using the service, if they make a habit of it).

This doesn't mean that the space shouldn't be used by others at times when no disabled users need it (which is probably the majority of the time IME).

How strange! I’m in SW London and have a double buggy (one on top of the other) as I have 2 under 2 and always get off when a wheelchair comes on. There’s literally a sticker saying ‘pushchairs are able to use this space when not occupied by a wheelchair user’ or something along those lines.

How odd that she made a big deal and called you selfish just because she was doing the school run. If anything she should make the effort to leave a bit earlier or wait for another bus if she knows you get the same bus as her. She sounds really entitled

Yes I read your post and mine was quite clear - your model facilitates and incentivises people who block access to disabled travelers. Why not abuse the system when you know in practice all those nice able bodied people will just look the other way?

My model prevents the situation arising. If you don't like it, start campaigning amongst pushchair users for awareness and when the problem of piss taking able bodied pushchair users disappears we can drop the charges.

But people are not moving are they? How many threads are there on here with the same thing.

For decades people, usually women, negotiated buses with buggies.

Get a cheap GoPro equivalent and then a mount to stick it onto of the wheelchair (so you can keep you hands free) link.

Then start filming, the bus driver, anyone not moving etc… You can set up an instagram account just to highlight these issues. (someone earlier said you can’t take photos of children in public - yes you can, but it is courteous to obscure their faces if distributing the image).

I would also inform the school and ask them to send a parent reminder that wheelchair users have priority, even if they are in the queue first or already on the bus. Some people do need reminding of this.

Every time you give way you are teaching your daughter she is second class. Use that to give you that backbone and strength.

S24 of the Public Passenger Vehicle Act 1981 states
Bus drivers refusing to allow wheelchair users onto buses where the wheelchair space is either unoccupied or occupied by people who can readily and reasonably move are committing a crime. They can be prosecuted, given a £500 fine and 3 penalty points.

S24 of the Public Passenger Vehicle Act 1981 states
Bus drivers refusing to allow wheelchair users onto buses where the wheelchair space is either unoccupied or occupied by people who can readily and reasonably move are committing a crime. They can be prosecuted, given a £500 fine and 3 penalty points.

You did the right thing to advocate for your child. She sounds like an entitled, cf.

Keep appealing and appealing again this decision. My DP had to appeal a PIP decision after amputation and was successful. The amount of successful appeals should raise questions about the original assessment's reliability but that's another issue.

And this is why I stopped using buses when dtds were little. I couldn’t physically hold 2 prem babies while folding a pram. No idea how people do. I never managed it. Yet you’re put in a game of top trumps of who has it hardest. I don’t think the mum was unreasonable to ask for a move that would have accommodated both but clearly you’ve painted a picture of an entitled woman. I wonder what her version would be.

Yanbu.

I used to take a double buggy in the bus every day, first bus was the only one that would get me to work and so couldn’t miss it. It wasn’t easy and I’m clumsy at the best of times but I learned to fold, using a sling to help when needed.

If that’s the correct position for the wheelchair to be in then it must be for safety reasons, as you said OP.

YANBU. Why would she think you’d risk your child’s safety,

You had us all at 10 year old in wheelchair! YANBU
Double buggy is a choice!

But it would've been unsafe for her to move the position of the chair.

"Double buggy is a choice!"

No.it isn't. Don't be ridiculous.

She still should have got out the way though. Obviously.

She’s out of order. Wheelchair users have priority and it’s totally unreasonable to ask you to move your child to a position that is not safe. I’m glad you stood your ground. Hope she backs off now.

If this is the repeated occurrence it sounds like it is, I would write to the bus company about it, maybe even involve a local MP.

Other mum should be not being an entitled c.f. and collapsing pushchair down every day rather than beating you to the space. Very selfish.

OP, you absolutely must not allow yourself and your DC to wait for the 2nd or even 3rd bus. You have priority in law. I understand you don't want to create a scene, but you need to model this for your DC - they are entitled by law to be treated better than they (and you) are being treated.

If you're really nervous about this, can someone do the school run with you a few times to 'educate' the driver/s and mums with buggies? An assertive friend or relative? If I lived nearby, I'd gladly volunteer as it makes me so angry to read how little regard there is for your child's rights. Life is tough enough without selfish a-holes making it worse.

You need to raise something with the local authority and discuss further her transport. Does she have an EHCP. I am aware that not all physically disabled children are entitled to one unless they also have a learning disability. However I’d check your LA’s transport policy and see if they should be offering your child an individual taxi. Usually if it’s over 3 miles there shouldn’t be a huge issue if that’s your nearest school or o it suitable school. If it’s less than 3 miles you would need to really provide proof that this journey is difficult with your child’s disability due to lack of accommodation on public transport etc. you could also contact your local parent carer forum or local sendiass service to ask their advice too.