Was I Unreasonable - wheelchair Space

[Nicetomeetyou25]

Hi, My DC ( 10 ) is a wheelchair user, we have to take public transport to school and honestly where we live is a nightmare. Some of the London buses still have a very small area where wheelchairs and pushchairs can go. I know else where there is no priority but on London buses it is stated very clearly wheelchairs are priority and pushchair need to be prepared to fold. School runs can be crazy because there tends to be a lot of pushchairs. I never ask a pushchair to get off and always wait for a bus that we can fit on. Every day a particular school mum beats me to the bus stop and she really does make sure she stands in the correct place to get on first and I usually allow this.

yesterday I could not be late home so I collected DC a tiny bit early and took them to the bus stop before the school bus stop. Got on bus and we arrived at the bus stop with usual pram getting on ( I should have added that she has a double stroller )

I had placed DC in the correct wheelchair position so sideways with back against the wall where stairs are as it is how the buses even say you have to.
she asks me to turn DC around so there was more space for her to get in side by side. I refused. She said she didn’t understand why I wouldn’t. I explained that I wasn’t willing to change position as it wasn’t safe.
She goes to bus driver and kicks off to advice him that there was enough space of I just turned the wheelchair around and placed it behind the pole.
she got off in a bit of a strop and called me selfish.
was I being unreasonable ?

You don't need to justify yourself to anyone. You are absolutely not being unreasonable. The spaces are for wheelchairs and you must ensure your child's safety. If there is no space, then people will just need to wait (no matter their circumstances or what kind of morning they've had). There's not even a debate here.

So rather than learn you want to take the wheelchair space and snark at people who do manage?

How do you think we managed before wheelchair spaces? We did exactly as described - slings, smaller buggies which folded on buses, asked for help. Amazingly none of mine caught the lurgy from those random people, most of who were more than willing to help for the 30 seconds it took to collapse the lightweight folding double buggy. We also were not allowed to fold on the bus - we had to have the buggy ready to put in the luggage area.

First few times it wasn't easy but you rapidly learn and it becomes second nature.

@MobilityCat

Thank you for this. This is what I was trying to find the other day.

"S24 of the Public Passenger Vehicle Act 1981 states
Bus drivers refusing to allow wheelchair users onto buses where the wheelchair space is either unoccupied or occupied by people who can readily and reasonably move are committing a crime. They can be prosecuted, given a £500 fine and 3 penalty points."

@Nicetomeetyou25 if you find yourself in this position again you now have the letter of the law on your side. Ask politely that the bus driver helps you clear the wheelchair space. If he doesn't ask for his name and report.

To people asking you to unsafely position your child on the bus just say calmly 'it's the law' and 'it's for safety'.

You don't even need to make eye contact, just be armed with this knowledge.

I don’t think it’s hard to imagine the mum with the double buggy doesn’t have the easiest mornings either.

@NeedAHoliday2021 she'll be in that position for 2 (or maybe 3) years at most.@Nicetomeetyou25's DD will be needing to use a wheel chair for the rest of her life - another 60 or 70 years.

It's really worrying that a normal human being doesn't have the imagination to realise this.

@Nicetomeetyou25 goes way above & beyond politeness to allow women with buggies - which they could fold down but deliberately refuse to - onto the bus before her. Those parents who push in front of a wheelchair user are despicable. There is no other word for it.

I agree you shouldn’t move your child into an unsafe position, if you had the space first then the other person will just have to wait for another bus.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t agree that wheelchair users should get priority. If someone is already occupying the space with a buggy and they are unable to move it or fold it down (which can often be the case when you’re travelling with multiple children, bags etc) then I think the wheelchair user should have to wait for the next bus.

Most people with a double buggy have at least one child who is able to walk. Even where there are floppy premature twins, it’s a time limited issue. They get less floppy.

Having a hard morning with young children is not comparable to having a disability.

And it’s views like this that make me wonder if perhaps the WHEELCHAIR space (clue is in its name) should be closed off unless a wheelchair user needs it.

disabled people campaigned long and hard to have one space on the bus they could access. But sadly some people seem to forget that and think it’s a free for all.

There’s always a bloody buggy there in many cases. And the wheelchair user cannot just decide to fold up the chair and sit somewhere else.

It’s a huge difference. That’s why wheelchair uses take priority. And should do.

Given the entitled attitude of parents, maybe the courtesy of allowing them to use the wheelchair space when it’s not required for its actual purpose should just be withdrawn. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Even better, disabled people could just stay at home and conduct their entire lives virtually and then there would be no inconvenience to busy mums with prams (and bags).

@Sirzy that would seem to be a massive waste of a very useful space which would go largely unused if ONLY wheelchair users were able to use it. When I lived in London I use to get the bus multiple times a day and very rarely was the wheelchair space used by a wheelchair. It was much more useful to accommodate a large amount of standing people and or buggies.

@hryllilegur I don’t feel entitled as a parent, I see myself exactly the same as anyone else wanting to use the space. If someone’s using the space then I’ll wait for another bus. If I’m in the space first I’ll move if I can but I just don’t think I should be forced off the bus to accommodate a wheelchair (I certainly wouldn’t want to do that to a mother and her children if I was a wheelchair user!)

@EmmatheStageRat what a bizarre statement! I’m guessing you’re quite a dramatic person! 😂 btw I don’t expect disabled people to stay at home living virtual lives! If they’re using the space first they won’t get any hassle from me! I’ll wait!

There are no circumstances where the buggy user can't move it unless the bus is unfeasibly and illegally crowded. After all, they must be planning to take it off the bus at some point.

So what is the wheelchair user to do when every bus has a buggy user in that space? Do they just sit waiting for hours on end?

Thankfully the law disagrees with you.

"I see myself exactly the same as anyone else wanting to use the space. If someone’s using the space then I’ll wait for another bus. If I’m in the space first I’ll move if I can but I just don’t think I should be forced off the bus to accommodate a wheelchair (I certainly wouldn’t want to do that to a mother and her children if I was a wheelchair user!)"

But you're not the same as everyone else. Where does the wheelchair user store their chair? You can't easily fold them all. And where does the person go? Depending on their disability, they may not be able to physically walk or even move at all.

You're not equal. You chose to have a child. No one asked to be disabled.

I think you can only say that you wouldn’t ask a pushchair to move if it was you IF a you actually have been in the situation of trying ti navigate transport very day with either wheelchair dependent or have a DC is.

@SEMPA1234567, how can you see yourself as exactliy the same as the wheelchair user in a space designated for wheelchairs? You have the choice to fold your buggy, or walk some or all of the way. The wheelchair user has neither choice.

Is the reason OPs son doesn’t qualify for transport because his disability is not stopping him from getting to school on public transport, it’s the poor behaviour of the other users / the driver not upholding the rules that stops her using the bus?

@hryllilegur I don’t feel entitled as a parent, I see myself exactly the same as anyone else wanting to use the space. If someone’s using the space then I’ll wait for another bus. If I’m in the space first I’ll move if I can but I just don’t think I should be forced off the bus to accommodate a wheelchair (I certainly wouldn’t want to do that to a mother and her children if I was a wheelchair user!)

tell us you have absolutely no idea what it’s like to be a wheelchair user without telling us that you have no idea what it’s like to be a wheelchair user…

It’s not the same. At all.

The wheelchair space is about equity. You cannot treat everyone equally and still be fair. See the cartoon. Note that the ramp would probably work best for the child but their parent can lift them. So they should not just decide that they want the ramp and everyone should wait their turn because ‘equality’.

That’s exactly what parents are doing with the wheelchair space. They can fold their buggies down. They’re rather not. And then claim the wheelchair user must wait their turn because ‘we’re all equal’.

No, the reason OP’s DC isn’t getting transport is the LA are acting unlawfully. Whether a child can get to school on public transport or not isn’t relevant to whether a DC who can’t reasonably be expected to walk to school is entitled to transport.

@Patineur absolutely not true! You could move the buggy into the isle and then block everyone getting on and off the bus (I’ve done this before btw and people just had to squeeze past but I wouldn’t exactly describe this as safe). If you have more than one child then it is impossible to say hold a baby, keep your hand on a toddler, collapse a buggy and hold it/move it out the way while holding changing bags/shopping bags etc your only option in this situation if a wheelchair user gets given priority is to get off the bus. I can see why some people would say that’s what should happen but I don’t agree. I have collapsed my buggy and held my children when I had another person there to help me though but 90% of the time I got a bus I was on my own.

@Patineur I think that’s unlikely. The OP herself says that even with this inconsiderate mother that gets the space first everyday she still manages to get the 2nd or 3rd bus and that’s presumably at peak time on the busy school run.

@AnorLondo you’re right and that’s why I have gotten off the bus for a wheelchair before but it doesn’t mean I have to agree with the law!

@SouthCountryGirl I wouldn’t expect a disable person to walk/store they’re chair. As I’ve said if they’re on the bus first I would wait for the next bus.

@Nicetomeetyou25 I take your point and do understand that obviously my difficulties getting public transport with young children will be relatively short lived compared to your daughter who will always have to face difficulties using the bus. I just genuinely can’t imagine asking anyone to get off the bus for me, I’d just wait, this might just be my personality though, not saying it’s a good thing. I did use to take my nan out in a wheelchair on the bus (not everyday admittedly) and found some people to be very rude, standing in the space and waiting for you to ask them to move etc. We did always wait for another bus if a buggy was in the space though (my nan would have been mortified if we’d asked anyone to get off! Maybe that’s where I get it from!)

@hryllilegur I was waiting for someone to bring up equity! It’s a lovely picture and I fully understand the point but the bus scenario is more like if the 2nd picture only had the wheelchair user and the ramp as the adult and child had been made to move out the way completely! But they can wait and watch another match. Some would say that’s fair as it’s the only way the wheelchair user can watch the game and they get priority, I just don’t agree.

btw I don’t expect disabled people to stay at home living virtual lives! If they’re using the space first they won’t get any hassle from me! I’ll wait!
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But if they're not there first and you have to get them off to let them on as is legally required, you will give them hassle?
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Don't know what happened with the formatting there, MN has been glitchy with me recently.

If you have more than one child then it is impossible to say hold a baby, keep your hand on a toddler, collapse a buggy and hold it/move it out the way while holding changing bags/shopping bags etc your only option in this situation if a wheelchair user gets given priority is to get off the bus.

No it’s not. You could put baby in a sling, have reins for toddler, collapse buggy one handed, and have change bag/shopping in a rucksack and in the hand that also has the reins in. Or ask for help. No it’s not easy, but it is easier than having a disabled child and you have choices a parent of a disabled child doesn’t have.

it Is a wheelchair space. Fought for my disabled people.

there are a lot more prams than their are wheelchair users so if we stop giving wheelchair users priority for the only space they can access we make it so many of them can’t leave the house.

if parents want a dedicated space they are free to campaign for one. Until then they need to realise they are “borrowing” the space until the time someone who needs it needs to get on the bus.

I have a child with a disability also. It's not her disability that I find difficult, it's other people and their attitudes toward people with disabilities that make it hard.
Don't ever give up your child's space for anyone, OP. You are their advocate and you also have to fight for those who come after you.