Tories aren’t even bothering to hide their NHS privatisation plan anymore

[Letshaveablackcelebration2022]

I think it was possible Noam Chomsky who said that the route to all privatisation of services was that first they run it totally into the ground and then they offer up a private model as a solution . It’s actually tedious in its predictability. Pillaging everything good from the country- Royal Mail, water, utilities, rail network, even housing via private landlords - everything to make profit.

And of course as predicted, the NHS was the final prize.

Nothing is going to fix the NHS it's expanded far beyond what it was ever designed to do. The current system is unsustainable and no government is going to be able to fix it by throwing money at it. Unless we all want to pay more NI/tax then it has to go back to offering the basic services it did before. It isn't right that it carries out half the services it does that quite frankly are born out of our own choices and lifestyles.

"But its budget for this year is £180bn. It represents 45% of total government receipts. That's considerably more than countries like France and Germany."

UK spends $5,387 per capita on healthcare.
Germany $7,383 = 37% more
France $6,115 = 13% more

Despite what the Conservatives keep repeating, the UK is actually already a low-tax country, so there is less in the taxation pot to share out for essential public services.

Note that this does not mean just income tax. Corporation Tax (which the Conservatives want to reduce) and various duties are lower in the UK than elsewhere, the argument being that this will attract investment to the UK. The problem is that this "trickle down" policy has been shown repeatedly to be ineffective, and by leaving the largest unified market on the planet, the UK has further diminished its attractiveness as a place to invest.

Exactly this. There was an interesting discussion on 'More or Less' on Radio 4 this week. NHS spokespeople will have you believe that there are fewer staff now than before COVID, and less funding - but there's actually more - but fewer patients being seen / procedures being done. I know someone who works (high up) in NHS management. They have a degree in history and no medical knowledge or experience. They freely admit that all the tinkering on variou IT systems that they and their colleagues are doing at the moment achieves nothing for patient access/care, and it's all just about filling roles, getting even bigger 6 figure salaries and counting the time until they retire on huge publicly funded pensions. Huge reform is needed on many levels.

And presumably you don’t give a shit about the millions of people who won’t be able to afford basic treatment? Im alright Jack, and fuck the povs.

I wasn't talking about per capita figures... That's a different point

The public have clung to the concept of a "free" NHS for decades. It's a system built on gratitude and hierarchy, rife with bullying. I don't think the public should continue to be grateful for shit care and shit attitudes for which they have waited for far too long.

Every time I set foot in a hospital I seem.to be surrounded by people in uniforms who seem to chat an awful lot and waste a lot of time. That isn't to say that some HCP's aren't very very busy.

At my last two hospital appointment to monitor my response to a drug I am paying for, £100 per calendar month, because I'm under the bar according to the nice guidelines, I have been kept waiting for one hour, forty five minutes. No apology, no explanation. If my optician, dentist, solicitor, accountant did that they would be quickly out of business. And even more quickly if they then decided to address me with my first name whilst introducing themselves with their title and expecting me to operate as a subordinate stakeholder.

What I saw during my last visit. A receptionist at the front desk who spent a lot of time talking to other workers (security, shop staff) who popped in for a chat. Two "nurses" weighing, measuring and doing blood pressure who seemed to have a patient for 5 minutes every 15 to 20 minutes and when they didn't have a patient chatted to the receptionist or could be heard giggling. Similarly when I was having infusions there were usually three to four nurses in the unit and never more than three patients at a time. I know far too much about all of their personal lives and each and every one complained about how busy they were. I couldn't see it. I honestly couldn't. Most of the aforementioned "nurses" were wearing pale blue dresses or tops. I don't know if that means they are fully qualified nurses or health care assistants as everyone seems to be referred to as a nurse.

Exactly. Just bumping up the budget isn't working. The NHS was of its time. Times have changed. There are plenty of models that work better than the NHS. Posters on here frequently write how their system works better than the NHS. Why can't you be open to change? Why so married to a system that works less well than others? Why do we always think it's either the NHS or the US system?
The whole system of healthcare and social care needs an overhaul and the both care systems need to be symbiotic. They can't work well separately.
The NHS will never improve while any political party is in charge of it because the Tories can't change it because they'll be accused by the left of selling it off. And Labour won't change it because it's the most powerful PR weapon in their electoral arsenal. And so the country is left with a stressed and failing system.

Well something needs to be done as it can't go on as it is and it's ridiculous to say that the nhs needs more money. It doesn't, it needs a radical overhaul of spending and for people to take sone responsibility for their health to mitigate the reliance on it for conditions that could be managed or avoided completely with lifestyle changes.

Frankly I don't give a shit if it is privatised if that's what it takes to make it better.

You will when you can't afford the treatment that you or your loved ones need but you're not able to afford it.

It’s a zombie policy, it gets trotted out periodically but every objective report on it says that by the time you put in the infrastructure required to implement plus all the exceptions there would be, it would cost more than it would bring in.

Tories just say it because they know it appeals ti their voter base

"Just bumping up the budget isn't working. The NHS was of its time. Times have changed. There are plenty of models that work better than the NHS. Posters on here frequently write how their system works better than the NHS. Why can't you be open to change?"

Correct, but this is not what Javid is suggesting. He is proposing "rationing by price" - just as has happened with NHS dentistry. He is proposing charging patients to access a service that they have already paid for once, penalising those who can least afford it and discouraging people from seeking help when they most need it, completing the move from a preventative "health care" service into a "sickness care" service, to be used only when you're already sick.

Letshaveablackcelebration2022
germany had a scheme where you could travel across the country by train for like £12 a month or something crazy like that

Germany have some 'crazy' rules when it comes to healthcare as well'

Refugees or asylum seekers who have been in Germany for less than 15 months are only eligible for emergency healthcare. They will be accepted for medical assistance only in cases of acute illnesses and the costs of treatment for chronic diseases are often not covered by the state.

There are many NHS services provided by private companies. This is not new.

@Letshaveablackcelebration2022 sort of sums it up - some might prefer to pay higher tax for a better service. Many are not - in an odd way the NHS is a niche concern because a good many people never set foot inside a hospital on their own behalf in years. I certainly haven't - though the times I've accompanied an elderly parent to hospital are countless. For many however, it's like having a working local fire brigade; you probably won't need it though of course for those who do and don't get the service, the result is a burned down home.

This Govt runs the country like Ryanair, it's on that business model. No frills, it's run on the cheap. Ryanair's customer service is awful acc to the consumers' letters page in most newspapers but so what? Those are the unlucky customers who get thrown under a bus. Most customers calculate that won't happen to them so they sign on for cheap flights, thank you.

Likewise, if all those who'd suffered at the hands of the NHS low funding, nasty and exploitative care homes, or on benefits, court cases in limbo for years, all this kind of stuff, decided to vote Labour it would not swing an election because they/we are all spread so thinly across the country it doesn't count in a first past the post system. Also, there's not much political solidarity there.

Raise taxes however and in one stroke you create a standing army of disenchanted voters with a common cause who will not feel any need to vote Conservative. It's a numbers game and the Tories have done the maths.

It does seem however that after years of austerity the wheels are coming off the Tories' strategy not least because it seems so many of them are absolutely quids in, there is no 'we are all in it together'.

I agree with you that the current system is not working.

Do you trust this government to do the right thing for the people of the country as they move to reform it?

Because I don't.

@Havanananana the NHS doesn't presently provide the best treatment I need for a chronic disease that has led to six broken bones in six years. The £2500 for a two year course of the optimum medicine comes straight out of my pocket. Just as £8k for my dd's MH related care came from my pocket when she was 16-18 because the NHS does not provide adequate MH care for young people. My local MH structure was given an additional £2.5 million to improve services when DD was ill and after an expensive review. They pissed it up the wall on an extra layer of bureaucracy and services became worse. There followed another expensive review.

Had I not had the money to sort out dd, I have no doubt she'd have dropped out and spiralled to the bottom. Instead she went to Oxbridge, and is now teaching at a specialist school contributing to society, forging a career and paying tax. How many sink because the NHS isn't working.

What is the problem with privatisation? As long as it remains free at the point of access I don't understand everyone's reluctance. The NHS would become more efficient and easier to access almost overnight.
I don't get the issue. The current model clearly isn't sustainable so we either pay a lot more tax/NI or we privatise. I know which I'd prefer.

MIL had cataracts done recently the process where the nhs was involved was a complete shambles
Many say it’s about funding the money they wasted dealing with her was unbelievable
she missed appointment due to letter been sent and dated day before appointment didn’t arrive till three days after
clinic chaos loads of staff loads no patients many not turned up presume they didn’t get letters ether

Then after seeing consultant she got another appointment went to that only to be told it was duplicate appointment
that was 3 appointments for the same thing

the private company who did it picked them all up with there own transport it was run like a miltary operation

Most of you would be shitting your breeks at a 52% tax rate (like the Dutch for example). Or did you mean “tax the rich?”.

I don't want it to be privatised but I think it will be quite funny when all the 60+ Tory voting daily mail readers realise they will have the highest premiums.

Everyone saying it will be fine if it’s privatised clearly don’t read the stories of people in the US losing their homes over medical bills, paying thousands each month for medicines we take for granted, millions without any health insurance at all and the drastic need for socialised medicine out there. It’s not a model anyone should aspire to.

This response just shows a,basic lack of healthcare systems round Europe and the world. You're just thinking NHS V US and nothing in between.

UK health spending

@KnickerlessParsons do you actually understand what it means? It wouldn’t be solved overnight either - Jesus

There are tons of healthcare systems that work better than ours that are not the US style. Why get hung up on that all the time?