Tories aren’t even bothering to hide their NHS privatisation plan anymore

[Letshaveablackcelebration2022]

I think it was possible Noam Chomsky who said that the route to all privatisation of services was that first they run it totally into the ground and then they offer up a private model as a solution . It’s actually tedious in its predictability. Pillaging everything good from the country- Royal Mail, water, utilities, rail network, even housing via private landlords - everything to make profit.

And of course as predicted, the NHS was the final prize.

Fab. Can we vote for them again please?

This whole thread is concern over heading into privatisation does that just go away because they are your party?

Imo being pragmatic is the same no matter which

I don’t mind Labour doing it, Blair did after all, but the rest of the proposals are woeful imo

@orangeoyster Reasoned debate often leads to some acceptance...

(My figures are from NHS England itself. If the chairs have an issue with them then I have to ask what they're actually DOING with their days.)

Govt has form for twisting figures i.e Including Student loans in total educational spend...
So for my DD, she would tell you on the rare occasions they are fully staffed, everything works very well.. but its rare.

Anyway, I agree with much of what you say, though I would go further and I propose a different way of getting there. I absolutely oppose higher taxes, as we already pay far more than we should (or some do, at least)

Higher incomes taxes? yes i agree but i'm talking about taxes on some income streams which can be very low compared to "earned" income.

You don't even need to increase wages. If you reduce benefits and the minimum wage then you'll end up with more carers than you know what to do with

Totally disagree.. carers are on £10.50 ph, total income based on a 40 hr week would pay the rent and council tax, for a month in most parts of England, why should a carer use their own car, risking accident and mechanical failure for 25p per mile?

Anyway, on your market forces ideas...... my DD is leaving the NHS to work in Australia, she was actually recruited whilst still at Uni, when an outside agency gave a talk on working in the private sector and overseas, after gaining experience in the NHS..... several of her cohort have already gone to Canada and NZ.

@Alexandra2001

What can I say, one of two things are true:

1. Figures are incorrect - Gov cannot be trusted with numbers. Why would you want Gov in charge?
2. Figures are correct - Staff have been recruited to the wrong places. Why would you want Gov in charge?

I earned min wage for years while renting, and I saved until I bought a house. Anybody else can do the same.

Regarding cars. I think the modern response is 'JuSt BuY a TeSla' isn't it?
Seriously though, taxes should be lower, for one thing. For another, I would expect their wages to naturally rise, both in real terms and in comparison to other jobs. The result of this will be more desirable working arrangements. Again, competition is a good thing.

I'm not certain what to make of your DD going down under, but it seems to support what I'm saying. Relative differences count, no matter from which direction they come.

It's clear that overseas health systems target NHS staff, and while HCPs have to fund their own training costs, they can hardly be blamed for emigrating to another country where they will enjoy better T&C.

I have said here before that until we fund health training with fees and perhaps bursaries, and then expect a period of (paid) service within the NHS as "repayment" then I can't see how the brain drain is to be stopped. Of course, that begs a whole tranche of other questions.

"Privatisation is the only solution that will be sustainable, and it hasn't failed at all, as far as I can tell."

No I know you're a Tufton Street shill. Have you not looked at the water companies, just for the first one off the top of my head?

@EffortlessDesmond You can't tie people to an employer, its not feasible 3 years before you start work in the NHS... BUT what you could do is make it a choice after Uni, so a HCP can opt for the status quo OR your idea of say 5 years in NHS in exchange for tuition fees, another 5 years for bursary/mtce grant.

Another option would be a "bounty" after x number of years service in the NHS.

But any scheme needs to be able to make sure that people who are very poor at their job and don't want to be there are not just hanging on for the money..

We also need to have 3 year pay agreements too, we cannot keep having disputes/strikes.

Actually, it depends a great deal on the carers in SC. My SiL is one, in the council with the highest % of elderly and geriatric population in the UK. Working for an agency, she gets £12 per hour from the local council and is run ragged. If she does an NVQ (not sure of the level but I think 3) she moves up to over £20 per hour and her life works because she can afford her cost of living. It's not extravagant but it would give her a much more secure income, and let her provide a few more minutes for better care.

@Alexandra2001, I agree with you, noone wants the incompetent/unwilling hanging around for the bounty.... and fixed three year pay agreements should be standard practice.

The Tory government have been actively dismantling the nhs for years. They did nothing about pay for years before covid ( in fact actually reduced it) and now suddenly say they can't afford to pay nurses etc as their newest excuse. So what was their excuse before? I wonder if the inflated figures of increased spending include the disastrous ppe purchases? The tory government are seasoned liarsxat this point and if it isn't blatant lies it is by omission or deflection.

What I see are brilliant nurses who become not so good managers. Why do they become managers ...many because they want to move on from hands on but also some because they want a better wage. Pay nurses a decent wage and they might stay where they are as a hands on nurse. It would stop alot of the brain drain and encourage nurses to come into the profession and stay in post.

Afc does not appropriately reflect or represent nurses jobs. As an example, teachers get paid for taking on extra responsibilities, be it the school magazine or library duties...a nurse has to grow an extra arm , bleed for several days and learn chopstix backwards while standing on her head, study for several years, get another qualification and, as it was in my case, then had to 'appeal' to get my 'increased status' recognised despite doing the job before during and after the qualification. A friend of mine was on 40k as a teacher of nearly 20 years, when I was a nurse of nearly 30 years and a 'specialist' and a prescriber on 32k. I am not saying a teacher doesn't deserve their money but the lack of respect and understanding for the roles and responsibilities of a nurse are not treated with the same professional respect.

There is alot that is wrong with the structures and organisation in the nhs but this is reflective of government incompetence, not the hcps working with it. The tories had YEARS BEFORE COVID TO DO SOMETHING, BUT INSTEAD IT GOT WORSE...MUCH WORSE! As per the poster earlier who reported the effort to identify measures to increase productivity and then nothing being done, this is nothing new, but let's place the responsibility for this nonsense at the feet of those who could and should do something about it and not at the feet of those who have to try and do their job despite their incompetence. The Camerons, bojos, sunaks, hunts et al have alot to answer for. What baffles me the most is that through all the myriad of complicated dysfunction, incompetance, and waste in the nhs, paying a nurse a decent and fair wage is in fact one of the easier problems to fix in the nhs.

In 2016 the Conservatives privatised the part of the NHS that provided Cover Staff, quietly and with no consultation.

Now Agencies earn £8bn and make at least £500m, for staff that would have cost £2bn before...

....makes you wonder what tory or 'mate of theirs benefitted from that?

This what privatisation is about, its not efficiencies or cost savings, its about making the private sector more profitable... at our expensive.

Telecoms aside, there are few privatisations that have benefitted the general public.

I earned min wage for years while renting, and I saved until I bought a house. Anybody else can do the same.

At the risk of derailing the thread, I don’t believe that for one moment.

It’s pretty obvious to me that introducing the profit motive into public services is a sure route to cutting corners and downscaling. We’ve seen it everywhere. Our train services are now subsidising those in France and Italy, our water companies are exporting our money to France. Thatcher introduced privatisation into the NHS for catering and cleaning whereupon cleaning standards fell and MRSA rates increased. It’s as plain as the nose on your face that every penny of profit is a penny less spent on front line services.

It’s pretty obvious to me that introducing the profit motive into public services is a sure route to cutting corners and downscaling
@Blossomtoes , I agree it serves as a mechanism for those at the top to hoarde all the money, to appropriate as much as they can grab of the profits generated by the normal people who do the actual work.
Our lives get poorer harder and more dangerous well those at the top accumulate more and more wealth and luxury, where will these parasites go next when they have exhausted their hosts?

My view
i feel the profit made by private companies is dwarfed by the amount of money the nhs would waste doing the same thing

People tend to get misty eyed about the 90s but profit was very much part of the equation then too.

It was an investment which underpinned PFIs. They had to have a good return for private companies to do it.

However, this is exactly contradicted by the evidence as posted above.

Therefore, your view is completely worthless...

PFI was the biggest rip off of the taxpayer imaginable. What should have been a perfectly sensible way of funding capital projects became an ATM for greedy corporations. There’s profit and there’s daylight robbery.

It ran pretty much on time, and as a student I could afford to catch the train all over the country. I never had to stand either.

I remember being told when I had an MRI NHS style I was told that it cost 3k which is why they're hard to get. Imagine my surprise when I ten years later had another MRI and the bill was £600.

The cost will have reduced as a result of the cost of the machine itself decreasing. They’re ten a penny these days but they used to cost an absolute fortune. It took my local hospital three years hard fundraising to buy one 20 years ago. Obviously they were rarer so used more sparingly then.

I wonder which Labour MP or mates benefitted from the billions of £ of PFI deals? The PFI deals were so crap it’s said the deals were like taking out a mortgage with a loan shark. Either some Labour MPs were massively making some money, or the whole load of them negotiating the contracts were unbelievably financially incompetent.

Having worked in an NHS trust while a PFI deal was negotiated and seen the quality of the people who were involved on the trust’s behalf, it’s definitely the latter. Employing someone competent would have saved millions.